Originally published April 25, 1997, in Comics Buyer’s Guide #1223
And now, for no discernable reason whatsoever, a list of things that drive me nuts. In no particular order, they are:
New technology. I love my laserdisc player.
Then again, I also loved my record player.
But then compact discs came along, and my record player became obsolete because I couldn’t get records anymore.
Now, all of a sudden, manufacturers are trying to foist a new format called DVD, which is designed to appeal to laserdisc owners—and, obviously to try to replace laserdiscs.
No. Uh uh. Forget it.
I’ve got a library of laserdiscs and my Pioneer laserdisc player.
I don’t want to change.
I will not change.
I will not support this DVD thing. And they’d better not stop manufacturing laserdiscs or I’m coming after somebody.
I don’t know who yet.
I’m not sure where.
Could be an exec.
Could be you.
Yes, that’s right, I might go so berserk that I attack innocent CBG readers on the off chance that they supported DVD and made my life that much more miserable. So, save money—and save yourself.
* * *
Out of Order Artists. Most of the comics I write, I write them using what’s called the “Marvel style.”
As opposed to writing a story full script (which details a panel by panel breakdown, and all the dialogue within each panel), when I write a story Marvel style, it basically reads like a short story written in present tense. This story is given to the artist, who then breaks the story down visually. The pages are then sent back to me in photocopy form.
I script them. That is to say, I write the dialogue, indicate balloon placement on the art pages, and send it back to Marvel so that the letterer uses it as a guide for actually lettering the comic. Usually when the art pages come in, the editors want me to script the pages and turn them around as quickly as possible.
And every so often, I will get an artist who makes this impossible. How? Because he won’t pencil the pages in order. If the editor calls me and says, “I got in five pages,” silly me. I think this means that I’m going to get pages one through five. No. I get pages 1, 5, 9, 15, and 21.
It’s impossible to get any sort of dialogue flow that way. You can’t segue from one page to the next because you don’t know what the next page is going to be. Particularly if the artist has, in addition to handing in odd chunks, decided to make changes to the story as he goes. In that event, you simply don’t have a prayer of scripting anything coherent.
So you sit there and wait for more pages to come in, and meanwhile the book falls further behind on deadlines, putting that much more strain on the inker, letterer and colorist.
* * *
Mystery Science Theater 3000. Make no mistake, I’m a fan of the show. In fact, Bob Greenberger, Mike Friedman and I perform Mystery Trekkie Theater 3000 every year at a convention called “Shore Leave” in Maryland, during which we rip an old episode of Star Trek to shreds.
The problem is, thanks to MST3K, I now find myself making fun of all kinds of movies, whether they’re good or not. For instance: I love The Empire Strikes Back. Always have. But when I saw it the other day, I kept making wisecracks for the amusement of friends sitting nearby (who either genuinely thought I was funny, or else were just too polite to say that I was ruining the movie for them).
For instance, when the Admiral walks into Vader’s quarters and Vader is seated in that big egg-like platform of his—the one where he’s only visible from the waist up—the Admiral tells Vader that the asteroid field is making it impossible to find the Millennium Falcon. Vader responds with something like, “Asteroids are not my concern, Admiral. I want that ship!” And in a deep Vader-like voice, I piped up, “And never interrupt me while I’m on the toilet again!”
Or the part where the imprisoned Chewbacca is howling as loud, piercing, disruptive sounds fill the room. And, adopting a Londo Mollari voice, I said, “Narn Opera,” a joke only Babylon 5 fans will get.
Or the part where Luke has shown up to rescue his friends and Leia, as she is being dragged off camera, shouts, “Luke, it’s a trap!” To which I shouted back, “What’d you say? It’s a what?” And Leia obligingly repeats, “It’s a trap!”
Odd. I’ve been seeing a lot of films alone lately. I wonder if there’s a connection.
* * *
Canon Computer Systems. I have a Canon Notejet 486. It’s a laptop computer with a built in printer. I’ve had it for several years. It broke.
To say I got zero support from Canon is to understate the problem.
There is absolutely no local place where I can get it fixed.
The Canon office from which I purchased it is gone, with no forwarding phone number. And no one will handle a Canon. Even Canon won’t handle Canon.
Since the machine is no longer under warranty, and since I didn’t have any sort of extended plan (possibly because it wasn’t offered), Canon refuses to handle the repairs.
The only place I can get it fixed is in California. I have to ship it to them and, since they handle repairs for the entire country, it’ll take at least a month before I have it back.
* * *
Truncated Oscar Speeches. It takes years to get a movie made. Years. And it bugs the hëll out of me when the orchestra cuts in after thirty seconds, interrupting the speeches.
The obvious reason is to stop the show from running long. Well, they have that stupid rule in place and the latest broadcast ran three and a half hours. I suggest that the producers either bite the bullet and cut the show down to announcing the best actor, best actress and best picture, and that’s all. Or else they give up and let the show go four hours or more.
This is the age of VCRs; if people on the East Coast don’t want to stay up past midnight, let ‘em tape it.
I loved it when Cuba Gooding, Jr., endeavored to shout above the orchestra in accepting the Best Supporting Actor award.
The audience only encouraged it, jumping to their feet and applauding as Gooding dueled the musicians and pretty much won. I swear, if by some miracle one of my screenplays (I have six unproduced on hand, in case anyone’s interested) was ever Oscar nominated, I’d come armed with a small bullhorn.
As a side note, boy, am I kicking myself that I didn’t tape that opening montage with Billy Crystal in all those films. How the hëll long did it take to put all that together? Best opening ever.
* * *
PBS Drives. Hardly an original observation, but this is really getting out of control.
In my neck of the woods, I can cruise past three different PBS stations throughout the day and never once see any programming. Just pledge drives. And whenever there’s anything I want to see, it’s unwatchable.
I wanted to see the Riverdance concert. Couldn’t watch it. Fifteen minutes of program, ten minutes of pledge drive. If PBS is trying to raise money, they’re succeeding. I wound up buying the videotape. My local tape store made money.
* * *
Bad movies become tolerable on TV. The reason this drives me nuts is because I’m not entirely sure why this is the case.
Films which I thought were incredibly disappointing in the theater, ranging from Judge Dredd to the lame submarine comedy Down Periscope—films I could barely sit through the first time—I now find eminently tolerable on cable.
Has TV so scaled down our expectations that we simply don’t care whether the programs are any good?
* * *
Batman and Robin. Is it just me, or is this the worst trailer I’ve ever seen for a Batman movie? Think about the adrenalin rush, the simple power of the trailer for the original Batman movie. The visuals, the dialogue, the mood all crackled—and it didn’t even have music to drive it.
And now look what we’ve got. Batman always looks constricted in his costume. But he’s Baryshnikov compared to Arnold Schwarzenegger as Mr. Freeze, clomping along in a costume that makes him look like Robofridge. Furthermore, they managed the impressive feat of presenting Uma Thurman in a manner in which she doesn’t look gorgeous. The dialogue uttered during the trailer was achingly awful (okay, okay, the line about Superman was cute—but that’s it). The march towards doping up the Batman movie series continues unabated. If Batman and Robin features “Bam” and “Zowie” superimposed over the fight scenes, I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised.
(Peter David, writer of stuff, can be written to at Second Age, Inc., PO Box 239, Bayport, NY 11705.)
• 
Y’know what drives me nuts? This steering wheel on my crotch.
DVDs — Reminds me of the commentary for one of Kevin Smith’s movies on laser disk which he started with f**k DVDs. This commentary was of course transferred to the DVD. And now DVDs are making way for Blue Ray (which is at least backwards compatable.
MST3K — I found myself in the same circumstance for years. At least it’s tapered off to the occasional pun.
Bad movies — it might be that since we’re not paying directly for the movie, instead it’s just part of the cable bill, that we can enjoy it more. There are a lot of so-so films I find myself watching if I see it on after flipping through the channels, including Down Periscope.
A couple of weeks ago, I was at my local Best Buy, purchasing a copy of the new Mission Impossible. The cashier picked it up and looked at me. ‘No Blu-Ray?’ he asked. ‘Dude, it’s Tom Cruise,’ I told him and he nodded knowingly and tucked it in the bag.
And that same reason that led you to buy it on DVD instead of blu-ray is exactly the same reason I never have and never will see it at all.
–Daryl
The main reason you should watch it, and it is a good popcorn movie, is that it’s directed by Brad Bird.
Dude, he did the Incredibles and Iron Giant. And he wrote for the Simpson’s.
TAC
Or, just put it in your netflix queue…
Or just…not watch it.
As good as The Incredibles was and as near-perfect as The Iron Giant was, Cruise drop-kicked any goodwill I had towards this Mission: Impossible-in-name-only franchise with the first movie.
I’ll pass until someone makes an actual Mission: Impossible movie that doesn’t transform Jim Phelps into a traitorous murderer.
–Daryl
Daryl, I know exactly where you’re coming from. I had the exact same reaction and was just as outraged with the betrayal of Phelps.
That said, “Ghost Protocol” totally kicked ášš.
PAD
Regarding award speeches, for the past several years I’ve been listening to All Things Considered Science Friday’s coverage of the annual IgNoble Prize ceremonies. (This usually airs the day after Thanksgiving.) And I love their version of “playing someone off.” If a speech goes on beyond (I think) 45 seconds, a little girl called Miss Sweetie Poo comes up by the podium and begins to say “Please stop, I’m bored” over and over.
I’ve sent an email to “Big Bang Theory” creator Chuck Lorre suggesting it might be fun for one of the BBT gang to win an IgNoble.
I hate when people talk during movies, so I keep any MST3K comments to myself, but in Thor, when he tried to pick up his hammer and couldn’t, I just couldn’t resist saying in my best sing-song James Marsters voice, “Someone wasn’t worthy…”
When I first read this comment, my brain said “James Mason”, and I even tried a sing-song James Mason voice aloud. Then I realized you were talking about Spike and was slightly disappointed.
Goddammit WHY DID I NOT THINK OF THAT JOKE
So how’re those laser discs holding up, Peter?
I remember this column. I remember that in a subsequent Oh, So? column (or maybe it was you reading a letter you were sent in a subsequent BID, Peter), someone asked you if it was merely possible that you were wrong about those movies you disliked in the theater and found tolerable on TV, and you responded with something to the effect of, “Sure. What’s your point? I never said I couldn’t be.”
Ah. the last of the Schumacher Batman films. At least he apologized for them.
I think Schumacher has been somewhat unfairly maligned. It was Warner Bros. that recoiled from the violence of the Burton films and wanted to make the franchise more kiddie and wanted as many characters as possible to put on fast-food glasses, for toys, etc….He’s not entirely blameless of course but his track record has shown he is/was capable of much better work if allowed more control.
Speaking as a former film student, I’ve seen plenty of movies I haven’t liked. I saw plenty in class that didn’t hold my interest, prompting my girlfriend and I to decide not to waste the beautiful day outside. But Batman and Robin is the only movie I’ve ever hated so much that I wanted to leave the theater after willingly buying a ticket.
And, it’s also the movie that has led me to avoid movies directed by Schumacher and (if I happen to notice the credit) written by Akiva Goldsman. So, I’ll never know whether or not his subsequent track record made up for this abomination of a movie. And it’s a shame, too. Clooney had the potential to be a perfect big screen Batman, but the script and direction smashed that potential. And Clooney apologizes for it to this day, when I don’t think it was his fault.
But Schumacher? He can join the likes of Kevin Smith and Rob Liefeld on my “do not support their hackery” list.
I know…how do I really feel about it, right?
–Daryl
Do you consider Kevin Smith to be a hack in regards to his films, his comics or both?
Some of us snuck into this in a Loews theatre in Levittown. We arrived just as the 3 headliners were tearfully watching the recording of Alfred, saying he had just “downloaded his brain algorythms into the bat-super-computer”. We promptly turned around and left.
Jerome, the answer to that question would be “both.” With a side dish of “unprofessional” to his comics work.
–Daryl
“But Batman and Robin is the only movie I’ve ever hated so much that I wanted to leave the theater after willingly buying a ticket.”
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Wow, I’m jealous, if you’ve only ever experienced once in your life a movie that you hated so much you wanted to walk out. It happens to me all the time.
Batman and Robin is bad, but at least it’s bad in interesting ways, so I could never really hate it. And plus, after Batman Forever, I knew what to expect.
The weird thing is that, between these two movies, Schumacher and Goldsman made A Time to Kill, a movie that was actually really, really good despite being based on a novel I didn’t like at all.
The only movie I ever wanted to walk out on was “Happy Gilmore.” In fact, I tried to. I tried to depart the venue immediately.
But the dámņëd stewardess made me sit back down and buckle my seatbelt.
PAD
At least you had an excuse – re HAPPY GILMORE.
I wasn’t expecting much from the LOST IN SPACE movie, but I was at least a little curious as to what they were going to do with it. Big mistake.
Not once.
Not twice.
THREE TIMES I was screaming internally “Get up! Leave! Go, now! Stop watching this pile of crap.”
But, like the proverbial deer in the headlights, I simply couldn’t force my body out of that cinema chair. To my lingering regret.
Jerome Maida: I think Schumacher has been somewhat unfairly maligned. It was Warner Bros. that recoiled from the violence of the Burton films and wanted to make the franchise more kiddie and wanted as many characters as possible to put on fast-food glasses, for toys, etc..
Luigi Novi: But why does that equate with that campy, dumbed-down schlock he created? Why does it have to be Overstylized Adult Tim Burton Fare vs. Dumb Schumacher Camp? Paul Dini proved that it doesn’t have to be one or the other, as there is plenty of room to create family-friendly Batman stories without being dumb camp.
Nytwyng: But Batman and Robin is the only movie I’ve ever hated so much that I wanted to leave the theater after willingly buying a ticket.
Luigi Novi: What, you don’t ever leave the theater when movies you like are over? 😉
(I assume you meant in the middle of the film, right?)
You are correct, Luigi. The film was beyond bad. I guess I am just annoyed to this day because it sooo didn’t have to be that way. If you look at the cast, there is a lot of talent there.
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The one thing that always bothered me and to me was a shining example of how those in charge were obsessed with big names and had no pulse on what would work was the selection of Arnold Schwarzenegger as Mister Freeze. The scene where freeze has the accident that creates him should have been tragic, but they had Arnold do it so over the top and ridiculous people were actually laughing at the screen.
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I remember when I was interviewing Patrick Stewart for “Nemesis” and I asked him if he had heard the clamor and rumors about him portraying Mister Freeze. He said yes. I asked if he had ever been offered the role and he said no, then added, “But I enjoyed the rumors”. I then asked him if he would have accepted the role if it were offered and he responded, “Yes, I probably would have”.
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Just one of a ton of mistakes.
Oh, on the topic at hand, I found this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1JOsCFRzxY
Yeah, 100 horrible quotes from “Batman and Robin”There are a couple cheats where it’s just Bane grunting and a couple are difficult to hear, but the scary part is I can think of several more right off the top of my head:)
Even if Patrick Stewart was in the film, I doubt it would have turned out any better.
And I hated Nemesis, too. 🙂
Craig,
I know. It wouldn’t have mattered too much if Stewart was in the film if the plot – or lack thereof or dialogue had been the same. I was just illiustrating the mindset of the Powers That Be to get the biggest names possible rather than actors who might better fit the roles, their tone deafness if you will.
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Look how perfect Robert Downey, Jr. is for Iron Man for example. He was not exactly box-office gold before landing the role.
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And yes, there are plenty of reasons why “Nemesis” did so poorly and effectively ended the Next Gen films. But again, to me it had more to do with direction and story than Stewart or any of the other actors.
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And they cut waaay too much..”Nemesis” is one of those films that makes much more sense – though it was still far from spectacular – when deleted scenes are restored.
I don’t believe I’ve seen the deleted scenes from Nemesis. I should probably check them out some time. I’ve always heard the Director’s Cut of Daredevil was a much better film, too.
Craig – Do you know if those deleted DAREDEVIL scenes explain things such as how a lawyer who gets paid in fish can afford that sizable loft he uses for his secret headquarters in downtown New York City?
Yes, he apologized for them, but they’re still out there. Which is not a good thing.
Yes, while the quality of Smith’s comics writing can be debated, I don’t see how any halfway objective or intelligent person can call his comics work anything but absurdly unprofessional.
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Over 3 1/2 years for the he next issue of a “Spider-Man/Black Cat” series? And people still make excuses for him! Oddly enough, none of these people have offered to refund me the money a paid for “Daredevil:Target” #1, the miniseries that is still waiting – and likely will forever do so – for a follow-up issue.
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The sad thing is that Smith, had his work been on time, likely could have set sales records seeing as how “Spider-Man/Black Cat” came out immediately after the first “Spider-Man” movie and his relative “hot” status at the time.
Let’s not forget his first foray into Daredevil…being loaned Mysterio to use as the villain with the single proviso that he not kill him, given an upcoming Spider-Man storyline using the character. Smith used the character, which would indicate that he agreed with the conditions…and killed him.
Then there’s Green Arrow. The series preceding his was cancelled to make room for what Smith described as his “dream job” to be launched in approximately 6 months’ time…a series that didn’t materialize until about 2.5 years later. I remember sitting in the room for a DC panel at San Diego shortly after Smith’s run started, and – after crashing the panel – he was asked if the resurrected Ollie would be rejoining the JLA. In response, he said that he was asking that other writers not use the character while he was re-establishing him. I distinctly remember hoping that his request would be shown the same respect that he showed the request not to kill Mysterio.
And don’t get me started on his film work.
–Daryl
Well, I don’t know about whether or not he had permission to use Mysterio or not, but that and quality of his story aside, what was really insane about “Daredevil:Target” was that it was set to come out a few months before the “Daredevil” film, when DD and Bullseye would be introduced for the first time to millions of people and they wanted the buzz of the comic to equal that of the movie and have the trade ready for those possible new fans and they give the story of how Bullseye went from his iconic costume rto his movie appearance to Smith instead of Brian Michael Bendis, arguably the hottest, best-selling writer of the past dozen years, who was in the middle of his run with DD and was told he couldn’t do a Bullseye story until Smith was done.
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After a few YEARS that was rescinded…amazing. And for those who feel a Bendis “Daredevil:Target” would have been a decompressed mess that would have had a bunch of people talking 90% of the time, but not only do I disagree with you, but even if you are correct, at least the series would have COME OUT! Say what you want about Bendis, he doesn’t miss his deadlines.
Oh yeah…Bendis. He’s on the list, too.
With dialogue that repetitive and action that primarily occurs off-panel, I’d hope he doesn’t miss deadlines.
–Daryl
Two questions:
1.) Can you sum up what you don’t like about his Smith’s film work? Just curious.
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2.) As for Bendis, I see a bit where you’re coming from, but I will say that especially since “Secret Invasion”, his work on his various “Avengers” titles markedly improved – and I still love his “Ultimate Spider-Man”.
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“The Siege” was quite entertaining and “Dark Avengers” – maybe because he knew he only had so many issues to work with and therefore didn’t decompress – moved pretty briskly and was pretty well done.
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Sure.
1) To begin, full disclosure: I’ve seen one Smith film (Clerks) in its entirety and another (Mallrats) in part, which was enough to drive me away from his work completely. As such, my take on his work is formed from those two experiences. I find his dialogue to be mind-numbing. It sounds as if it would be right at home on some of the worst “frothing at the mouth” fanboy message boards around. Clerks in particular I found to be a stylistic copy of Jim Jarmusch’s “Stranger Than Paradise.” As a result of both his writing and directing, I find that I don’t care about his characters – I neither get invested in their stories, nor am I interested in seeing what happens to them. At the end of the day, I think that, with Clerks, he was the lucky beneficiary of a widespread occurrence of an attitude that is often reserved for a subset of film students: “It’s not like the mainstream, so it MUST be brilliant!” and he’s managed to ride that wave ever since.
2) Ah, Ultimate Spider-Man…where Bendis took six issues to retell an 11 page origin story, robbing it of all life and not featuring the title character AS the title character until the 4th issue of that story.
(I’ve had many a person try to dispute that, saying that Peter Parker’s in ever issue. But, the stated goal of the so-called Ultimate line was to strip away the years of continuity to make them “new-reader friendly.” With that in mind, you’ve got this colorfully costumed character named “Spider-Man” on the cover…who’s nowhere to be found in the book. It could be this Parker kid that was attacked by the giant spider in front of his entire class…or it could be someone else less obvious. It would be akin to Joss Whedon starting his Buffy the Vampire Slayer series and waiting until the fourth episode to show us a character named Buffy, a vampire, or said character slaying a vampire.)
Setting aside, for the moment, the achingly repetitive nature of his dialogue, with no characters having individual “voices,” (page after page, issue after issue of Matt & Foggy as talking heads bemoaning Matt’s secret identity being exposed?), he’s just plain one of those writers whose skills do not intersect with my tastes and probably never will. As such, seeing his name attached to a book is a guarantee that I won’t like it.
–Daryl
I’m not a Kevin Smith fan, either. I quit watching his movies after Dogma and haven’t seen any since. HOWEVER (and this is a big however), he made one great movie, and that is Chasing Amy. After Clerks and Mallrats, I had absolutely no interest in this movie, but my girlfriend at the time saw it and said I had to see it. So I did, and I loved it. Unlike his previous films, the dialogue is crisp and actually funny, the story line is mature and insightful, and the acting isn’t horrible. So I recommend giving it a look some time.
As for Bendis, I’m also mostly in agreement with you, except I loved those early Ultimate Spider-Man issues. Your Buffy analogy doesn’t work. The comic isn’t called Spider-Man, the Costumed Crimefighter. He’s a Spider-Man as early as the first issue, which ends with him HANGING FROM THE CEILING (come on, no one could think it could turn out to be someone less obvious). I don’t know if you were purposely exaggerating, but the lack of a costume is not anywhere near the equivalent of three episodes of a Buffy-less and vampire-less Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Bendis told the story the right way, by actually TELLING THE STORY instead of just squeezing the Cliff’s Notes version into 11 pages, like Lee and Ditko did.
But I’m with you on his dialogue. It was fresh and cute once upon a time, but now it’s just obnoxious. I can’t read his stuff anymore.
Your Buffy analogy doesn’t work. The comic isn’t called Spider-Man, the Costumed Crimefighter. He’s a Spider-Man as early as the first issue, which ends with him HANGING FROM THE CEILING (come on, no one could think it could turn out to be someone less obvious).
If we take Marvel at their word that the “Ultimate” line was intended to eliminate decades of continuity to be “new reader friendly,” we can’t assume anything going in. We’re presented with a company performing genetic manipulation and wanting to track down the kid who was bitten by the ginormous spider. If you’re one of these mythical “new readers,” can you really assume that the kid hanging from the ceiling will be the person we saw in costume on the cover? Speaking of….
I don’t know if you were purposely exaggerating, but the lack of a costume is not anywhere near the equivalent of three episodes of a Buffy-less and vampire-less Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Perhaps a slight exaggeration, but not much of one. The book is called “Ultimate Spider-Man.” The cover features someone in a red and blue costume with a spider web design on it, so we can conclude that this person covered head-to-toe is the title character. Where was he in #1? Or #2? Oh…there he is in the final panel of #3. After reading the first two issues, the first thing that came to mind was a variation on a Jeff Goldblum line from Jurassic Park: “Uh…you do actually plan to have Spider-Man in your Spider-Man comic?”
Bendis told the story the right way, by actually TELLING THE STORY instead of just squeezing the Cliff’s Notes version into 11 pages, like Lee and Ditko did.
If “the right way” and “TELLING THE STORY” means padding extraneous information in to stretch out the story to perfect TPB length, while simultaneously robbing it of any life, excitement and spontenaity in the process, then, yes…Bendis did indeed “do it the right way.”
Well, if that’s the case, give me Stan’s “wrong way” any day of the week.
–Daryl
“If you’re one of these mythical “new readers,” can you really assume that the kid hanging from the ceiling will be the person we saw in costume on the cover?”
The entire issue is about him, he gets bitten by a radioactive spider and ends up with spider powers. Can I assume, if I’ve been living in a cave for 40 years and have never heard of Peter Parker, that he is the Spider-Man from the cover? Yes, I can assume that. It wouldn’t even occur to me to question it.
Well, MST3K may be gone, but the trio keep the tradition going with Rifftrax, which is either the movie with commentary (if they got the rights) or an audio commentary meant to be played during the movie. And they riff on plenty of good movies, including the new STAR TREK, THOR and CAPTAIN AMERICA. Definitely worth checking out on YouTube!
Actually, while Rifftrax is good, I prefer Cinematic Titanic where it has most of the original cast of MST3K. Joel, Trace, J. Elvis, Frank & Mary Jo are all involved.
DVD’s – *Play’s Bob Dylan’s ‘The Times are changing’* Enough said
Right. Because, Bendis would never make anyone else his “Ultimate” Spider-Man. Maybe I’m being unfair to him. So, this weekend, I’ll head to the store and pick up the latest adventure of Peter Parker, the “Ultimate” Spider-Man.
–Daryl
Gah! Bloody iPad hiccup moving my reply to its own comment. This was in answer to Robert’s last reply to me.
–Daryl
So let me get this straight. I, as a new comics reader reading the first few issues of Ultimate Spider-Man, might have peered into my crystal ball to see the coming of Miles Morales a decade later, and thus, knowing that Bendis was willing to give the Spider-Man costume to someone else, would naturally question whether this Peter Parker kid would turn out to be the guy in the costume on the cover, and that would have confused me way too much for me to enjoy the story, therefore making it a bad comic book.
Are you demented?
I’m afraid you didn’t get it straight.
The current state of the character was used simply to illustrate that Bendis isn’t above making someone other than Peter Parker the so-called “Ultimate” Spider-Man. And, this is the same “Ultimate” line that would give us a Wolverine who has sex with a teenaged (under age?) Jean Grey, a cannibal Hulk, a Hank Pym who indulges in sadistic relations with Janet Van Dyne, Captain America portrayed as Captain A-hole…so is pulling a switch on the expectations set in the first issue really outside the realm of possibility? Going back to Buffy for examples, it’s akin to something Whedon wanted to do with the pilot for Buffy: include Eric Balfour as Jesse in the opening credits, so the viewer goes into it thinking, “OK, he’s one of the people we’ll be seeing every week.” only to have Jesse turned into a vampire and dusted by the end of the pilot. It tells the audience to expect the unexpected. (He did revisit this tactic in season six, adding Amber Benson to the opening credits after having post-titles “also starring” status for about two seasons’ worth of episodes, only to kill her character in that same episode. This made me fear for Lorne when Andy Hallett was added to the opening credits of Angel. But, as our host says, I digress….)
Now, you and I both know why Spider-Man (as such) didn’t appear in the first or second issues (and only the final panel of the third). “Ultimate” Spider-Man is not meant to be read as individual monthly issues…it’s meant to be read in TPB form. In that form, Spider-Man appears in the first story. That’s why the story was stretched and deformed into six issues, to make the perfect length of a TPB, and the monthly issues be dámņëd.
–Daryl
“The current state of the character was used simply to illustrate that Bendis isn’t above making someone other than Peter Parker the so-called “Ultimate” Spider-Man.”
Yes, but how is this relevant? Are you saying that now that we know, ten years laters, that Bendis is not above making someone else Spider-Man, those early issues are retroactively sullied and rendered ambiguous? That makes no sense.
“And, this is the same “Ultimate” line that would give us a Wolverine who has sex with a teenaged (under age?) Jean Grey, a cannibal Hulk, a Hank Pym who indulges in sadistic relations with Janet Van Dyne, Captain America portrayed as Captain A-hole…so is pulling a switch on the expectations set in the first issue really outside the realm of possibility?”
Disregarding the fact that those were all things Mark Millar was responsible for, this possible Spider-Man switch of which you speak DID NOT HAPPEN! So you’re complaining about something that didn’t happen but might have happened and yet was highly unlikely, and wouldn’t have necessarily been a bad thing if it had happened. Is this really the position you want to take?
– Mystery Science Theater 3000 –
Yeah, been doing the same thing ever since I became a fan as well. However, I did that before they came along as and can’t get away with blaming them.
Yes, but how is this relevant? Are you saying that now that we know, ten years laters, that Bendis is not above making someone else Spider-Man, those early issues are retroactively sullied and rendered ambiguous? That makes no sense.
Of course it doesn’t, considering its not what I’ve said. I’ll grant that I am using hindsight to establish Bendis’ ability and willingness to put someone else in the costume coupled with the stated marching orders for the “Ultimate” line to wipe the slate clean and start from scratch to indicate that, while it would be an (ultimately correct) educated guess that the kid on the ceiling is indeed the title character, with those marching orders, it’s not necessarily a given.
As to being “retroactively sullied,” for my money there’s no “retroactive” about it; their poor quality at the time of release sullied them then and there.
Disregarding the fact that those were all things Mark Millar was responsible for, this possible Spider-Man switch of which you speak DID NOT HAPPEN! So you’re complaining about something that didn’t happen but might have happened and yet was highly unlikely, and wouldn’t have necessarily been a bad thing if it had happened. Is this really the position you want to take?
That’s not the position I want to take, nor the position that I have taken. My position is quite simple: if you are going to release the first issue of a comic called “Ultimate” Spider-Man, with the stated purpose of attracting new readers, and the cover featuring a colorfully costumed super-hero in action, it might be a good idea to have that colorfully costumed character appear somewhere in said first issue. That didn’t happen.
–Daryl
“Of course it doesn’t, considering its not what I’ve said. I’ll grant that I am using hindsight to establish Bendis’ ability and willingness to put someone else in the costume”
And my point is that hindsight is not applicable. Yeah, NOW we know that Bendis is willing to make someone else Spider-Man, but at the time there was no reason to believe someone other than Peter Parker would wear the costume. There wasn’t even a reason to entertain the possibility.
Bendis was telling a story about a boy who acquires spider powers. Why does it even matter if he’s called “Spider-Man” in the beginning? The Birds of Prey were never actually called that until somewhere around issue 75, but that never mattered, since it was just the title of the series. Alec Holland didn’t become Swamp Thing until the end of issue 7 of the new series (and it wasn’t always entirely clear he would become Swamp Thing). Does that make it bad? No, it’s just a way of telling a story. You’re evidently used to the old days, when a superhero’s origin and his entire first adventure as a superhero were crammed into a single issue (or even half an issue). That’s the way it was always done, but that doesn’t mean it’s the ONLY way to write a superhero comic book.
“with those marching orders, it’s not necessarily a given.”
Well, nothing is a given. Even if he had appeared in costume in the first issue, it wouldn’t have been a given that someone else wouldn’t take over the role in the second issue. You can’t judge a comic book (or anything) by what MIGHT happen.
“if you are going to release the first issue of a comic called “Ultimate” Spider-Man, with the stated purpose of attracting new readers, and the cover featuring a colorfully costumed super-hero in action, it might be a good idea to have that colorfully costumed character appear somewhere in said first issue. That didn’t happen.”
That’s true, but that has nothing to do with the artistic quality of the comic book. And the comic certainly didn’t have any trouble attracting new readers, even without the costume.
And my point is that hindsight is not applicable. Yeah, NOW we know that Bendis is willing to make someone else Spider-Man, but at the time there was no reason to believe someone other than Peter Parker would wear the costume. There wasn’t even a reason to entertain the possibility.
No reason? Not even the blood analysis that says the spider bite will kill Peter? With that analysis performed by the very same lab that modified the spider to work on human genetic manipulation in the first place?
Yeah…no reason at all to think someone else might be in the costume, since the kid’s been given a death sentence.
Bendis was telling a story about a boy who acquires spider powers. Why does it even matter if he’s called “Spider-Man” in the beginning? The Birds of Prey were never actually called that until somewhere around issue 75, but that never mattered, since it was just the title of the series.
And that was the title of the series because of brand identity going back to the first one-shot which did, in fact, carry the names of the two starring characters of the one-shot: Black Canary/Oracle: Birds of Prey. The subsequent one-shots, minis and ongoing series may have dropped the “Black Canary/Oracle,” but they also featured an expanded cast and did not constitute a slate wiped clean of the previous continuity as the so-called “Ultimate” Spider-Man series did.
Alec Holland didn’t become Swamp Thing until the end of issue 7 of the new series (and it wasn’t always entirely clear he would become Swamp Thing).
Thanks for the example. I have the first issue of the new series right here. And it makes it quite clear that Alec Holland has the memories of being Swamp Thing (or Swamp Thing’s template, as the case may be). And, for that matter, the Swamp Thing itself appears on the final page of the first issue.
You’re evidently used to the old days, when a superhero’s origin and his entire first adventure as a superhero were crammed into a single issue (or even half an issue). That’s the way it was always done, but that doesn’t mean it’s the ONLY way to write a superhero comic book.
You’re once again arguing points that I’ve not made, Robert. Never have I said that “done-in-one” origin stories are “the ONLY way to write a superhero comic book.” Please show me where I did. (I would, however, contend that a “done-in-one” origin story does not equate to being “crammed” into a single issue.) The closest I’ve come to a statement remotely along those lines was stating that I find Bendis’ slow, padded, drawn-out, six issue “Ultimate” Spider-Man origin inferior to the lively 11 page original.
What I have stated is that, when dealing with a new series, a blank slate continuity, a costumed title character, and a mission statement to bring in new readers, I find it in the best interests of the book to show that costumed title character as that costumed title character.
That’s true, but that has nothing to do with the artistic quality of the comic book.
I would disagree that it has nothing to do with the artistic quality (or lack thereof) of the book. Suppose you’re in the comic store, and you see the first issue of a comic called Stupendous Man. There he is, right there on the cover, in action wearing his colorful costume. It grabs your attention, you take it home and read it. You reach the final page and…well…there’s a guy with super-strength, but…no Stupendous Man. A certain expectation has been set by the title and the cover, and those expectations have not been delivered upon.
And the comic certainly didn’t have any trouble attracting new readers, even without the costume.
I’ll agree that it apparently didn’t have any trouble attracting readers. (I’m still mystified as to the appeal of Bendis’ work, but there’s no denying that he moves books.) But can we really be certain that it attracted many new readers, or just existing ones?
–Daryl
“Yeah…no reason at all to think someone else might be in the costume, since the kid’s been given a death sentence.”
Well, comic books generally don’t introduce a protagonist in the first issue and kill him off in the second or third issue. Our familiarity with serialized stories, not just in comics but in television and other media, more or less assured Peter’s safety in the mind of the average reader. But if they had killed him off, why would that have necessarily been a bad thing? Wouldn’t it have been an unexpected and interesting plot twist?
This is rather beside the point, though, which is that you used this perceived ambiguity concerning Spider-Man’s identity (and, really, you’re the first person I’ve ever heard from who thought that, but let’s put that aside) as an argument against Spider-Man being in every issue. But Peter WAS Spider-Man, he WAS in every issue, and, you know, a Spider-Man by any other name…
I just don’t see what the problem is. Hate Bendis for his homogeneous dialogue, his superfluous scenes that drag on too long, whatever… but to hate him for not calling Spider-Man “Spider-Man” for three issues just doesn’t make any sense to me. But to each his own…
“What I have stated is that, when dealing with a new series, a blank slate continuity, a costumed title character, and a mission statement to bring in new readers, I find it in the best interests of the book to show that costumed title character as that costumed title character.”
And why is that?
“Suppose you’re in the comic store, and you see the first issue of a comic called Stupendous Man. There he is, right there on the cover, in action wearing his colorful costume. It grabs your attention, you take it home and read it. You reach the final page and…well…there’s a guy with super-strength, but…no Stupendous Man.”
If the writing was good, it wouldn’t matter to me in the slightest. I don’t read superhero comics because I like the colorful costumes and the silly names. I read them because I like the characters and what they can do. I also don’t think the first issue of an ongoing series needs to meet every single expectation I have for it. Nor would I WANT a comic book to meet every expectation I have for it. That would be incredibly boring.
Well, comic books generally don’t introduce a protagonist in the first issue and kill him off in the second or third issue. Our familiarity with serialized stories, not just in comics but in television and other media, more or less assured Peter’s safety in the mind of the average reader. But if they had killed him off, why would that have necessarily been a bad thing? Wouldn’t it have been an unexpected and interesting plot twist?
You’re right in that generally they don’t. It is, however, not unheard of. And, please notice that I’ve never said that pulling such a twist would have necessarily been a bad thing. It could certainly keep the reader on their toes. (Please refer back to the example of Whedon wanting Eric Balfour in the opening credits of the Buffy pilot.)
This is rather beside the point, though, which is that you used this perceived ambiguity concerning Spider-Man’s identity (and, really, you’re the first person I’ve ever heard from who thought that, but let’s put that aside) as an argument against Spider-Man being in every issue. But Peter WAS Spider-Man, he WAS in every issue, and, you know, a Spider-Man by any other name…
Please note I’ve never suggested any intentional ambiguity, nor did I, as a roughly 20-year reader of comics, familiar with the original character, see an ambiguity. Looking from the perspective of the mythical “new readers” that the clean sweep of continuity the so-called “Ultimate” line was allegedly designed to attract, no assumptions can be made. Please also note that I’ve never suggested that abandoning such assumptions is necessarily a bad thing.
I just don’t see what the problem is. Hate Bendis for his homogeneous dialogue, his superfluous scenes that drag on too long, whatever… but to hate him for not calling Spider-Man “Spider-Man” for three issues just doesn’t make any sense to me. But to each his own…
I’d say that the costumed character promised in the title and cover art not being seen until the final page of the third issue is emblematic of those deficiencies in Bendis’ writing that you mention. Due to, as you put it, homogenous dialogue and superfluous scenes that drag on too long, material that would otherwise take a single issue, tops, is stretched into three. It’s a symptom of the excessive decompression that is a hallmark of Bendis’ work.
And why is that?
Because I think it’s a good thing to have dinosaurs on your dinosaur tour. Especially if your dinosaur tour has a stated intent of attracting an audience unfamiliar with dinosaurs. And if you’ve got a T-Rex on the cover of the tour program, you’d darned well better have a T-Rex on the tour.
–Daryl
If you didn’t like the comic, that’s fine, but most of your objections are based on how a new reader would have responded to it, which is not your concern and shouldn’t have any bearing on your own opinion. That’s all I’m saying.
And anyway, it’s a moot point. I really don’t see how a new reader would be any more perplexed by the lack of a costume in the first issue than would an experienced comic reader. If anything, given their lack of familiarity with comics, the ways they’re normally structured, and the ways the Ultimate universe differs from the MU, I’d think they’d be less perplexed. Nobody watched Smallville wondering if this Clark Kent guy would become Superman.
The brochure promised a T-Rex, but it didn’t say anything about showing you a T-Rex in the first dinosaur pen on the tour.
If you didn’t like the comic, that’s fine, but most of your objections are based on how a new reader would have responded to it, which is not your concern and shouldn’t have any bearing on your own opinion. That’s all I’m saying.
In actuality, most of my objections are based on Bendis’ piss-poor execution, from the standard stilted, repetitive, homogenous Bendis dialogue, to the typical excessive decompression of the story for no apparent reason other than to make the origin story ideal TPB length, to – in the case of the costume that appears to be a sticking point for you – the individual issues not delivering what the cover promised.
The new reader perspective comes into play in that new readers were (ostensibly, anyway) the target audience of the so-called “Ultimate” Spider-Man.
Nobody watched Smallville wondering if this Clark Kent guy would become Superman.
Given that the show’s promotional angles were all about “see how Clark Kent grows to become Superman.” that’s understandable.
The brochure promised a T-Rex, but it didn’t say anything about showing you a T-Rex in the first dinosaur pen on the tour.
If we carry the analogy out, I’d say that a single issue of a comic would correspond to a single pen on the tour. And, in this case, every single pen was labeled with a T-Rex picture.
“In actuality, most of my objections are based on Bendis’ piss-poor execution, from the standard stilted, repetitive, homogenous Bendis dialogue, to the typical excessive decompression of the story for no apparent reason other than to make the origin story ideal TPB length”
I meant your objections to the fact that Spider-Man does not appear in costume for three issues. I should have been clearer.
“Given that the show’s promotional angles were all about “see how Clark Kent grows to become Superman.” that’s understandable.”
You don’t need promotional material to tell you that. Clark Kent IS Superman, which everyone knows. Just like everyone knows Peter Parker is Spider-Man. New readers are the last people who would question that, since they haven’t been subjected to multiple Green Lanterns, and multiple Flashes, and multiple Robins. Most of them probably don’t even know that superhero identities sometimes change hands.
“If we carry the analogy out, I’d say that a single issue of a comic would correspond to a single pen on the tour. And, in this case, every single pen was labeled with a T-Rex picture.”
So blame the cover artist. That’s not Bendis’s fault.
Ah yes, laser disc players. Still have my Pioneer LD-838D. Twenty four years old and still works (just re-watched FANTASIA on it a couple of weeks ago). I wonder how many DVD or even Blu-ray players will still be operational in fifteen, never mind twenty or more years?