Random Acts of Rudeness

127 comments on “Random Acts of Rudeness”

1. I can’t imagine that sort of rudeness. No, strike that. I can imagine it; I used to run a comics shop. I just can’t wrap my head around anyone above voting age thinking that sort of behavior is admirable.

   I’m not a fan at all of Liefeld’s art. I deal with this by simply not buying it.

   Have I laughed at cartoons making fun of him and his drawings? Yes. Did I howl with derisive laughter at the ad he did for a jeans company back in the 80s? Sure.

   I’m reminded of the time one of my friends got invited to a barbeque at Chris Claremont’s house (this friend worked for Jim Henson, and one of the guys was Claremont’s friend). He and I had long ago dissected and dismissed the man’s work. Not our cuppa. Actively didn’t like it.

   I asked him how he handled it. “I struggled to find something nice to say about his writing.”

   I don’t blame the creators who don’t go to conventions. I’m amazed that any do (the movie Chasing Amy comes to mind).

2. I’m sorry, but I can’t forget this one line.

   “Operator! Operator! Why can’t I reach the operator on this dámņ phone?!”

3. Well, Liefeld isn’t the best artist, but at least you have to give it to him that that famous picture of Captain America has given people more laughs than many “real” humour comics ever do during their whole runs. Were I to meet Rob in a convention, I’d like to mention that I actively collected his stuff when I was younger and these days I still go thru his stuff. Partly to try to find what he drew strangely, and in part to see how I myself would have handled the same panels. Maybe share the observation I did above and ask (if the conversation seems to go in good direction and I judge that it would not be taken as an insult) that maybe he would do a quick draw of Captain America, asking him to parody his own style. That would be cool to hang on the wall. It would be a story worth telling to your friends.. indeed, to the Internet.

   And let’s face it; there are worse artists in the industry. Most people just seem to be bothered that they, personally, thought Liefeld was the new standard everyone would be aspiring to (and in part, it was: thank God THAT went over).

4. I’ve known a few guys who have always boasted about how they would rail on such-and-such artists panel arrangement or simplistic backgrounds to their face if given the chance. I suppose some people feel if they know a creators name and pay for their product that automatically gives them the right to be an ášš. They owe us, right? The thing of it is, how many conventions do you see where movie directors or television producers meet their fans? Their work may be crap but do they put themselves out there to let you say that to their face? Comic book creators are a rare breed in that you actually are able to meet the person behind the scenes. It’s all about human decency. Even if they can be far more of an ášš than you ever could on your best day, the best way to give your honest opinion is with your wallet. Simple as that.

5. Heinlein’s FRIDAY had a passage about that as the characters discuss what constitutes a ‘sick society’ and one of them points out a sure sign of a dying society is when people take rudeness as a sign of strength.

   You’re quite right about that idiot and one hopes he was never allowed at that convention, assuming there were others in that area.

   But, to be fair, there have been instances where those ‘guests’ have abused their status as guests and caused trouble for their hosts as well.

   Having been involved in the running of SF/comic book conventions here in the late 70s through the mid 80s, I can recall [a fortunately very small number of] ‘pros’ behaving in pretty reprehensible manners, from being drunk at signings, to generally treating fans dismally, to one Big Name in the comics industry deciding at the last minute he wanted to change the travel plans – which left the con committee on the hook with the contract to the original airline – and, once here, decided he preferred staying at that other, more expensive hotel and we could take it or leave it. We should have left it, but since he was Guest of Honour, we didn’t want to disappoint all the people who’d paid to come see him. Of course, it also meant many of the other guests then wondered why he got more expensive digs and they didn’t and you can imagine what a stink that set off.

   So, yeah, fans can be rude and inconsiderate. And they should know better. No question.

   But so can ‘pros’. It cuts both ways.

   1. But, to be fair, there have been instances where those ‘guests’ have abused their status as guests and caused trouble for their hosts as well.

      but let’s talk specifics. how or where was RL rude to this yellow hat? he drew something the kid hated and wouldn’t apologize when it was demanded?

      big. deal.

      to strike back at a guest because ZOMG guests have been known to be rude in the past means nothing. this is a specific incident, involving a specific individual who was not being rude. the kid was rude to an individual and now he’s being defended because pros have been known to be rude every so often?

      what world do you live in that you have to defend specifics with generalities?

6. I would say that some people were raised by wolves, but that’s just unfair to the wolves. I’m not a fan of Liefeld’s, I did enjoy his earlier Marvel works, and I think as a fan/consumer/whatever has the right to express their opinions, but to be an ášš about it is not cool. To express an opinion on someones art or writing or whatever is a form of constructive criticism that has the possibility of being useful or hëll, may spark a unique and interesting conversation. To brag about ripping on Liefeld like that didn’t do anything other than flag this person as a bully and a jerk. I really couldn’t blame any creators out there for not going to conventions. Instead of taking time out of their schedule they could just stay home and get work done, spend time with their families and at their leisure read criticisms online.

7. I was lucky enough to attend SDCC last year, where I met a load of awesome people, including yourself Peter. While walking the aisles and generally getting lost among the crowds, I stumbled onto the Image booth while Rob was signing. There was no queue, so I wandered up and asked if he’d do me a quick sketch. Anything at all. His choice. Free-of-charge, he jotted in a nice piece, signed it and handed it back. I thanked him and wandered off to get lost again.

   Rob was polite and kind, and while I may not be his biggest fan, I’m ever so grateful for the sketch. Other lesser known artists were charging an arm and a leg for less. As SDCC was only the start of a six week holiday in the US, I was couldn’t really afford to pay for sketches. Regardless, thanks to the generosity of people like Rob and dozens of others, I filled my sketch book with signatures and sketches, all freely given, before the end of Saturday, forcing me to purchase a second sketchbook for Sunday.

   Both books get pulled out at least once a month still just to show people what I got, and remind myself that there are still some incredible people in the world. All of you gave this Irish comics fan the most memorable holiday of his life.

8. I think the “guest” part is what throws them. I’ve been at conventions wearing a guest badge and had people come up to me and say “What does it mean when your badge says “guest?” These are people who pay to come to the convention, yet have no idea that certain people are asked (and occasionally paid) to come to these shows.

9. Absolutely agree. I’m not a big fan of Rob Liefeld’s art either, but good grief, there’s absolutely no way that the man “deserves” that kind of disrespect and cruelty. I just hope that Rob met enough people who enjoyed his work and were willing to express their appreciation to at least partially make up for that kind of shabby treatment.

   Which is a general reminder to everyone who attends a con: If you see someone whose work you like, walk up to them and tell them so. Don’t feel like you need to be eloquent, or witty–just a simple, sincere, “I really liked your work, especially (insert favorite here)…it meant a lot to me,” can make a guest’s day. They came to the con for us; let’s try to make that experience a good one for them.

   Oh, and don’t ask them where the bathrooms are. (Seriously, I spent a little while at DragonCon one year interviewing Marv Wolfman, and while he was absolutely as polite and gracious as one can be under the circumstances, the number of people who wandered up to him asking where the bathrooms, the dealer’s rooms, the pretzel stands, et cetera were was just staggering. And it’s not like he knew any better than anyone else did.)

10. I just saw this douche bag’s blog the other day and was amazed at how clueless he seemed to be regarding his general awfulness. Thankfully, a lot of the comments are from people who are disgusted with him.
    .
    Even on it’s own sad level it’s, as the kids say, epic fail. He doesn’t even have the cajones to be there when Liefeld sees the book–it’s just a small step up from the old leave a burning bag of dog crap on someone’s door step and ring the bell routine.
    .
    Although, for gobsmacking rudeness it’s hard to top your story, PAD. Comics criticism at a freaking memorial service??? Ugh. One of the bad things about being in a community that is generally more tolerant of those with bad social skills is that one must occasionally deal with people who richly deserve their pariah status.

11. Unconscionable. I am not a fan of Liefeld’s work myself, but the solution for that is easy: don’t buy it. And I have no idea what he’s like as a person, having never met him — for all I know, he’s one of the most wonderful human beings ever, and I’d certainly proceed with that hope if I ever did meet him. For this shmuck to go out of his way to insult him like that… and for what? Boosting his own ego for counting coup on a Big Name.

    And, that woman who insulted you, PAD? Classless, clueless, hopeless. I know it hurt; I can tell it still hurts. And it does little good to say, “Yeah, that was impossibly rude, cruel, and pointless, and just shows how small a person she is”. The wound was inflicted.

    The old riff about “if you can’t say something nice to someone, don’t say anything at all” is apparently inoperative. Being nice to people seems to take too much effort, and being mean gives too much instant gratification.

    Gaaaaaaaah.

    1. And, that woman who insulted you, PAD? Classless, clueless, hopeless. I know it hurt; I can tell it still hurts.
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       It doesn’t hurt, actually. Not then, not now. I can’t have been doing this for a quarter of a century and not made peace with the knowledge that you can’t please everybody. If you let yourself get hurt by criticism, you’ll either go out of your mind or out of the business. Or both. At the time, and even now, I just remain puzzled over both the compulsion and, more than anything, the timing. Always felt it said far more about her than me.
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       1. I just wonder who she was. I mean, was the memorial service open to fans? Or was this a Gruenwald friend/family member/co-worker who felt compelled to go up to you like that? Bizarre.

          If it were me, I probably would have asked her what piece of my work offended her enough to make her be so rude, but that would’ve probably just been feeding into her ego.

       2. If it were me, I probably would have asked her what piece of my work offended her enough to make her be so rude, but that would’ve probably just been feeding into her ego.
          .
          It literally never even occurred to me to ask her. I didn’t care why she was being that rude; the fact that she was pretty much said it all. Besides, the last thing I needed to do was potentially cause a scene at the memorial service.
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       3. I wonder if she didn’t choose that time and place because she knew you wouldn’t make a scene, and thus could get away with it relatively unscathed.

          Or, conversely, maybe she was trying to bait you into making a scene and publicly embarrassing yourself and offending numerous of your peers.

          Either way, y’know, áššhølë move.

12. While I completely agree that such behavior is out of place and generally disgusting, I have to wonder about how much Fandom in general has brought on itself.

    In my opinion, fandom in general (to be honest, I am focusing more on literary fandom here than comic fandom, but I believe this holds true), is way to permissive of social behavior that is just not acceptable in outside society.

    In fact, I’d even go so far to say its encouraged, so that we as a group can say ‘Look how inclusive we are!”. When it comes to the point that when I ran a convention, I actually had to provide information requiring that attendees shower and sleep, we’ve let things slide a little to far..

    1. I haven’t seen any “welcome to the con” instructions that didn’t mention not getting so excited you forget to eat, sleep, bathe etc. It’s a truism by now. The newbies in particular CAN get that distracted by it all, and it doesn’t hurt to remind them*. THAT’S not the problem – it’s the idiots who think that being rude makes them ImportanT who’re the problem.

       *Heck, sometimes you have to remind the STAFF – I speak from the experience of more years being Den Mother to more cons over the years than I’m entirely sure I want to think about.

13. I agree that there is no reason to be rude to any of the guests at a con. Just because you are not fond of someone’s work that doesn’t mean that someone else doesn’t like it. Otherwise, the guest would not have been invited. I agree with the rule ” If you can’t say something good then don’t say anything.” If its a small or slow period at a con and you are walking past the table of a guest you might not be interested in, just smile and nod politely and move on.. or say something about the weather. As I remember in ” My Fair Lady”, when making polite small talk stick to two subjects the weather and your health 🙂 (the weather is the safest).

14. Rudeness is typically inexcusable, but it is especially pathetic when the rude individual may not stop to think that the writer/artist isn’t the only one involved and that the editor(s) can also have a hand in screwing something up – from the point of view of the reader – yet it’s the writer/artist whom the editor(s) may have pushed in a certain direction who gets the grief. In which case misdirected rudeness makes it even worse. Talk about a rock and a hard place …

15. I’ve seen enough fans who stalk the guests at conventions – being outright rude is just as bad. They’re human beings, there to do a job and they’re by no means perfect. This sounds like something a bully in grade school would do.

    No matter how much I dislike Liefeld, degrading a guest is the last thing on my mind. Personally, I only pay to have fun conventions, so why waste my money on someone I don’t like? I show my disdain is by simply not going near someone’s booth or purchasing any of their items.

    I’ve had a similar thing happen to me at work, someone came in just to insult our business. Have you nothing better to do? If you don’t like it, why aren’t you shopping somewhere else then? It’s simply mind boggling that people feel the need to bother.

    What a coward.

16. One of the odd things about fame is the false sense of familiarity.
    .
    If you walk up to a friend after playing basketball with him, you can tell him he played terribly and he’ll be okay with it. He knows you, he trusts you, there’s a relationship there and the comment is taken in the context of that.
    .
    When we get to know someone through their work, it’s easy to feel like we know the actual person. I’ve read of several people who walked up to authors and said something that was actually meant as a friendly joke, just delivered in a kind of ribbing way that would be fine with a friend. Actually, I’ve done that myself once at a convention. I was very embarrassed and sorry when they took is as an actual complaint and not the joke I meant it as. It seemed obvious afterward that of course they wouldn’t take it as anything but criticism, they don’t know me, they don’t have a relationship with me.
    .
    That was just a joke, but I’ll admit that I’ve fantasized about walking up to Joel Schumacher and demanding my money back for Batman Forever. In my head it seems perfectly reasonable (well, a little reasonable). From his point of view, I’m sure he’d be wondering if he was dealing with some nut who could turn violent at any moment. It doesn’t seem like one stranger walking up to another because one of the people is a somewhat public figure, but yeah, it would really just be two strangers meeting on the street and one turning belligerent.

17. It looks like the guy’s blog has crashed from all the traffic. I read a couple of his posts over there, and I was going to comment on the following. He wrote something to the effect that the experience of having all these pros slamming him was “surreal” and he was “confused” because he was “used to comic nerds raging on pros, not the other way around.”

    He was trying to be funny and snarky, but it pointed out what really explains all this; there are a lot of extremely emotionally immature comic fans who have difficulty comprehending that the people who write and draw comic books are actual people. So they’re baffled when they see pros responding exactly the way they would. It’s like how you would react if your chair suddenly complained about being sit on.

    1. I commented on that blog post on Mr. Coons website. One think I noticed is that some creators, some of the pros did not acquit themselves well in this incident, and, indeed, sunk down to Ryan Coons’ level. While creators certainly have the right to comment on something like this, well, it should be beneath you. Would Queen Elizabeth II or any member of the British Royal Family comment on London tabloid trash? Would President Obama ever go on the Rush Limbaugh Show? No, because they know that when you enter the muck, you leave dirty. That’s just the way it is. This man got far more attention than is due and everyone (myself included, and no, I’m not a creator, but I’m working on it) who has granted attention to him are now a little bit more soiled than before.

       The following link expresses my view better than I myself could:
       http://www.examiner.com/x-19312-Columbus-Comic-Books-Examiner~y2009m8d11-Breaking-the-Internet-in-half-Rob-Liefeld-asked-to-apologize-for-Captain-America

    2. It also underscores what I’ve seen saying for years: Plenty of fans are fine with dishing it out, but absolutely cannot take it. I have responded to people in exactly the tone and style that they have addressed me, and they instantly howl that I’m being mean to them. They literally cannot grasp that I’m simply holding up a mirror to them.
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       1. Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I’m not sure I see the merit of stooping to the level of the most obnoxious guy in the room.
          .
          In July, Greg Weisman posted some thoughts about how to improve discourse in comment rooms (more specifically, the Gargoyles comment room, but human behavior is pretty universal). He had three points that I thought were interesting:
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          *Griping is totally legit. But griping without any sense of context does get old and leads to temper flare ups.
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          *The MORE you disagree with someone, the MORE respectful you should be. If you can’t be respectful, don’t respond. Or at the very least, GO AWAY for an hour or two until you calm down.
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          *Don’t sink to the level of the most obnoxious posters. If we’ve got a troll, it does NOT help to troll back at him or her.
          .
          Full content (if you’re interested): http://s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=820
          .
          You’ve spoken before about how some fans insult or threaten you and your family. I’m not suggesting you give those people a free pass. They obviously deserve no amount of respect from you. I was just thinking some of the points mentioned above might be useful for situations that haven’t descended quite that far.
          .
          I know online discourse vexes you somewhat, and I hope you’re able to find some sort of equilibrium.

18. Well, I’m sorry some jerks make fans in general look bad.

    I always try to be positive when I see someone at a con. I think we have a right to be critical in certain forums, but not in one like that. If you don’t like a particular creator, just walk on.

19. I hope the fact that you made my friend’s day at Comic Con helps you with rude fans. Your kind words to her made her chatter happily all the way home about how much fun it was to finally meet you, and we had a long session of discussing which one of your works was our favorite. (And thanks for your good wishes to me too)

    Thanks for making our con!

    1. Happy to do it.
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20. I commented on that blog post on Mr. Coons website. One think I noticed is that some creators, some of the pros who did not acquit themselves well in this incident, and, indeed, sunk down to Ryan Coons’ level. While creators certainly have the right to comment on something like this, well, it should be beneath you. Would Queen Elizabeth II or any member of the British Royal Family comment on London tabloid trash? Would President Obama ever go on the Rush Limbaugh Show? No, because they know that when you enter the muck, you leave dirty. That’s just the way it is. This man got far more attention than is due and everyone (myself included, and no, I’m not a creator, but I’m working on it) who has granted attention to him are now a little bit more soiled than before.

    1. Notice that I didn’t actually put up his website or any sort of link. I felt the actions were worth commenting on, but I didn’t give his name or any additional publicity to him. Certainly people can search it out for themselves, but that’s their decision.
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21. Interestingly, if you Google “Liefeld, How to draw Comics the Marvel way, twitter”, you’ll see it’s all over the Internet comicsphere, with what looks like 99.99% of professionals and fans siding with Rob, but every time I try to click on a link to the douchebag loser’s twitter account, I can’t get through. I wonder if it’s because he pulled it, or if the sheer number of people posting to tell him he’s a jerk caused a crash.

22. Puts me in mind of Harlan Ellison’s first meeting with Isaac Asimov.

    Which i always take into consideration every time i hear HE railing about the rudeness of fans.

    Or the person who once bragged in a fanzine that he had been one of the people booing Heinlein during his Guest of Honor speech at the 1977 WorldCon.

    (He denied having done so – either booing or bragging about it – it in later years when i finally lost my temper and teed off on him. Perhaps i semi-wronged him and he didn’t have the nerve to do it himself and merely spoke approvingly of it in his con report.)

23. Geeez… why does everybody need to state their dislike for Rob’s work before commenting on that jerk’s display of rudeness? It’s the same as some men feeling they need to state they are not gay before denouncing a case of homophobia. I for one am a long time member of ADLO, spanish acronim for Liefeld&Others Defense Association, a 10 years old (dis-)organization bent on injecting some good humour on comic book forums, chats and blogs. We also show a diferent angle from wich Liefeld (and Others) art can be apreciated.

    Working at many conventions myself, at a publisher’s booth, I’ve wittnesed many examples of so-called-fans rudeness over the years. Once, a dim witted creep got a hold on the publisher’s phone with the sole intention of calling a scheduled but absent (sick in bed) artist. Seems he NEEDED to ask him why his work sucked so much lately and couldnt wait to the next convention.

    1. why does everybody need to state their dislike for Rob’s work before commenting on that jerk’s display of rudeness?
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       Because Liefeld’s work is generally bad and it never hurts to point it out? 😉

    2. People are prefacing their comments with the fact that they are not fans of Liefeld’s, to make clear that what they are denouncing is the incivility, not the guy’s dislike for Rob’s art (which he’s entitled to).

    3. Geeez… why does everybody need to state their dislike for Rob’s work before commenting on that jerk’s display of rudeness?
       .
       I dunno. I know I didn’t. To my mind, the quality of the work was unimportant. The most acclaimed writers and artists have people who personally don’t like their work.
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    4. Because that someone so unremarkable, even poor, in terms of his anatomy, lighting/cross-hatching, figure placement, facial rendering, design, originality, etc., ascended to such a high position in the industry, even being allowed to take books like Captain America away from creators like Mark Waid and Ron Garney who were doing well on them in terms of sale, is bound to cause a certain amount of outrage, especially in people of higher standards, and of greater talent. This is different from merely “personally not liking” someone’s work, and such sentiments are bound to be expressed. This isn’t just true of Liefeld, but of any public figure in any branch of the entertainment industry.

       It’s unfortunate, however, that some who wish to do so cannot separate such criticism from personal attacks.

       1. Because I’d feel like I was being dishonest if I suddenly pretended to be a fan of Liefeld solely because someone boorish and asinine had just demonstrated that they weren’t. I haven’t made it a secret that I don’t care for his work (to the extent that anyone else cares about what I think, of course) and I don’t want people thinking that I was being a hypocrite when I said that kind of behavior was wrong. So I admitted my feelings on Liefeld’s work strictly in the interest of full disclosure.

24. Kee-riced. It must be nice to live in a world where your entertainment is the most important thing in existence, and where the soulless peons who provide you with said entertainment exist solely for that purpose.

    This is my least favorite thing about fandom – every now and then you meet a die-hard weenbag with an overly-inflated sense of entitlement who seems to have nothing in their life BUT fictional universes, and who takes it as a personal attack when they don’t like a story. These people need to go take a serious look through their bootlegs and find Shatner’s “Get A Life” routine.

    And say what you will about Heroes Reborn – that was quite possibly my favorite Iron Man series ever.

    -=ShoEboX=-

25. Jesus Mr. David, I’d hope to god you were making that up. At a FUNERAL?! WTF….

    And I’ve noticed that on the whole, comic book fans tend to be a-holes when it comes to criticism. After Final Crisis, there was a whole thread over at DC about fans who wanted to get together to beat up Grant Morrison at Comic-con.

    It’s sheer deuschbaggery.

    1. Just to be clear, it was not a funeral. It was a memorial service. I didn’t attend Mark’s funeral; I assume it was a small thing for family and close friends. Or maybe I just couldn’t make the date. (I was up in Canada when Mark passed away, as I recall, so the actual funeal might have been while I wasn’t around.) This was a separate memorial service held at some place in Manhattan that was open to everyone in the industry.
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26. I’m sure I’ve mentioned this in the past, but Harlan Ellison once wrote an essay called ‘Xenogenesis,’ which makes for fascinating, if bone-chilling reading. It started as a Westercon convention speech he was going to do, for which he contacted a number of different writers to ask for their most unforgettable fan anecdote. What he got was a series of letters most of which began with the preamble ‘In general, my readers are a very nice bunch of people who virtually never impose,’ followed by a second paragraph that recounted some terrible incident of ugliness or invasion of privacy. Barry Longyear talked about the fan who walked up and decked him, saying, ‘That’s for Duelling Clowns!’ L. Sprague de Camp remembered the group of fans who were so angry about the critical remarks made in his biography of H.P. Lovecraft that they discussed going to a concention he was attending and hitting him with a cherry pie (one fan actually approached him with an item in a mysterious brown paper bag but was turned away in time). But the absolute worst was poor Alan Dean Foster, who heard his name called at a con and turned around only to be hit in the face with a paper cup full of warm vomit. What made that incident all the more horrifying he points out, was the fact that this sick fan had to go through all the trouble of premeditation, actually carrying that cup around the convention floor until he found his target.

    If you ever want to discover more about the dark side of fandom, I suggest reading Ellison’s essay in its entirety (I think it was last reprinted in one of the Edgeworks collections). If you do though, you will never look at fandom or conventions quite the same way again.

    1. I mentioned Harlan’s first meeting with Asimov – you can find Asimov’s recounting of it at http://hermiene.net/essays-trans/asimov_meets_ellison.html.

       While HE is in many ways a great person, in others he is a tad less aware of, shall we say, the social contract; he may not be the best choice to be judging the actions of others.

       OTOH, there is truly no excuse for some people’s actions.

       Forget hitting Sprague deCamp with a pie – when he and his wife were here in Atlanta to speak at Georgia Tech, he mentioned to my mother, who was teaching there part time, that a death threat had been faxed to their hotel that day … over his biography of Robert E. Howard.

       And it was apparently not the first such incident.

       1. I know Harlan Ellison. I’ve met Harlan Ellison. Harlan Ellison is a friend of mine. And this guy is no Harlan Ellison.
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          If nothing else, in his dubious apology, he concluded with the notion that he himself is forgettable.
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          Does that sound like Harlan Ellison to YOU?
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       2. Oh, no – not at all. I was just saying that there are numerous stories of Harlan ripping into people for no reason, and i have personally seen what i could only call Saint Harlan (running the Wellman M<emorial Auction, for instance) and Devil Harlan … and some of my forends havbe had encounters withhim in which his reactions could only be called excessive.
          .
          Love his writing, like at least 75% of what i know about him … but he’s not the guy i’d pick to lecture people on how to behave to people they don’t ike.

       3. Come to think, while i don’t know him nearly as well as you, it wouldn’t surprise me if i met him before you did; and was publicly insulted by him in front of a crowd at the ’67 WorldCon.
          .
          “Oh, a comics fan? You should be shot.”
          .
          Oh – wait – that was ’66. In ’67 i was one of the group of comic fans who introduced him to Steranko, apparently leadig to him writing/plotting those Hulk stories.

       4. Did the link get changed? I don’t see anything about HE calling himself forgettable.

          I’ll say this about Harlan. when i was in college I was doing a project on a boy and His Dog and I emailed the webmaster asking if there was anyway I could get a couple of questions asked.

          What I got was a phone call from Harlan who was kind enough to take the time to answer what i had. (though given my surpise I was a little too starstruck to do my best job and I wouldn’t be surprised if Harlan felt i wasted his time) I hope not because that was seriously the coolest thing for someone like him to do.

       5. No, it was Rob’s stalker that called himself “forgettable.”

          Speaking of his “apology”, he says:

          “I’ve tried to feel bad about it since then. Then I feel as though I’m betraying myself, and like I’m being manipulated in some way. I understand the problem that the pros have with me, and I understand why they feel the way they do, we had a nice little chat about that. I simply can’t feel the same way they do. I’ve been trying to make sense of it all, and it boils down to that I’m typically a stoic person in my personal life, I don’t deal with or process emotion the same way that other people do.”

          Isn’t this pretty close to the description of a sociopath? Doesn’t process emotions the way other people do, incapable of feeling bad about hurting other people, doesn’t even understand what the big deal is.

    2. I was at that Westercon and it was quite a good speech but pretty much rolled off the backs of the fans who continued viewing each other through rose colored glasses. SF fans tend to be social outcasts (moreso then than now) and are (or were) loath to let reality impinge on their fantasy of a universally loving, accepting fandom.

       As a funny aside, Jean Auel was also at the convention and Harlan was continually apologizing whenever he uttered his then-favorite epithet “Owl Poop”.

27. One of the things I found amusing was at the guys website
    He says before he approached Liefeld, a friend asked him
    “Are you sure you want to do this”? and he replied
    “yes,it needs to be done”.
    WTF?
    NEEDS to be done ?
    Sound like this guy sees himself as the Champion of those that dont like Liefelds work.
    Weird.

    1. Yeah, between that and…
       .
       “No, I have to do this. I’ve waited thirteen years for this,”
       .
       It makes the guy look like an utter tool and loser. I can’t stand Rob Liefeld’s work. His writing has never impressed me and I’ve found his artwork to be far from what I would consider as professional or publishable. But there’s no way in hëll that I’m walking up to him at a convention (or anywhere else) and starting garbage with him just to show what a dìçk I can be.

28. To paraphrase that famous Forrest Gump quote, “Rude is as rude does.” It doesn’t matter how eloquently it is phrased or camouflaged. And it doesn’t matter who does it!

    We should add also that the insult here is from the fact that it came from a ‘regular joe’ (or inspired jerk) not a professional.

    It has been reported by Frank Miller (IIRC) that Neal Adams was pretty hard on prospective artists and Miller (to his betterment) was a recipient of one harsh critique. I also remember JMS telling the story on how he asked Harlan Ellison for advice on how to be a writer (called him at his house!) and was told, “Stop writing crap!”

    So I wonder, if we were to change the particulars and had the incident originated from somebody like Neal Adams (give a person a book on how to draw) or Harlan Ellison (gives a book on how to write) to a kid with a bad portfolio or manuscript… wouldn’t still have been rude but also spun as harsh or ‘constructive criticism’?

    I am not a fan of Rob Liefeld or of his work and no matter if it’s at a convention, bar, a memorial service or wherever… to go up to a creator and to ‘say your piece’ or ‘get it off your chest’ is at the very least uncouth.

    Also, PAD’s reaction to the ill-mannered person at Gruenwald’s memorial service is always the hardest thing to do but always the right way to respond.

    1. Actually I’d say the difference is that in the anecdotes you related, Neal Adams and Harlan Ellison were ASKED for their opinions. There’s a whole world of difference there.
       .
       As an aside, when I was a teenager, I met PAD at a convention and began pitching a story to him. He tore it to shreds, albeit in a very, very courteous and kind way. I listened intently and learned a lot in those few minutes. When you ask someone for their opinion, you have no business getting your nose bent out of shape if you don’t like what you hear. (As an aside, based on PAD’s advice I wrote a play to teach myself how to write visually. I later directed and produced the play at my high school. PAD’s advice was good, and really benefited me.)
       .
       On the other hand, if you run around giving unsolicited opinions, be prepared to be though of as a douchebag. If you then brag about what you did, be prepared to be thought of as a douchebag squared.

       1. You raise an excellent point.

          One asks for an opinion NOT to be rudely rebuffed. Your experience as you posted should always be the standard.

          I think it is fair to say that a great majority of people do not like or look forward to be torn to shreds but EVERYBODY retains the ‘moral high ground’ (so to speak) when pros and fans maintain themselves in “a very, very courteous and kind way” – as you and PAD posted with his experience at the memorial service.

          I suddenly recalled that JMS had a teacher who basically said, “You’ll never be writer.” and JMS sent him a copy of all of his sales up until the teacher’s death.

          Y’see, for me, what the teacher said was rude.

          Some educators will argue that sometimes being tough on a student will be make him or her perform at the level they (educators) who a familiar with the student, understand they can. Being tough and being rude is different.

          Pros at Cons are not functioning as formal educators. They are guests like PAD said and (just as you posted) when they are asked an opinion the fan/artist/writer wannabe better be prepared to hear something he or she hadn’t expected. That’s hard enough, no excuse by either party to just be rude.

       2. arcee,

          I’ve heard that story told about Harlan Ellison, but it could have happened to JMS, too.

29. My favorite part of all this, other than the usual laughable fanboy entitlement making itself known, is the video evidence that this guy was nowhere near as suave and badass as he makes himself out to be when he did this. He was, in fact, rather cowardly, up to dropping the book on Rob’s table in a hit-and-run fashion.

30. There was a similar incident at Anime Expo a couple years ago. A disgruntled fan of Robotech, angered at how “The Shadow Chronicles” didn’t mesh with how HE thought the plot should go, got into the Harmony Gold booth under pretense of doing a video interview, and hit Tommy Yune in the face with a cream pie. Mr. Yune treated it as a joke at the time, but I took a look at “Khyron Prime”‘s blog and his pompous posts of righteous fury, and I gotta think that Yune & co. were lucky that it was only a pie.

    That, and reading Xenogenesis, turned me off of fandom for a while.

31. Here comes a nice run-on sentence: As someone who just spent a lot of time and effort– including a decent amount of coin (well over $128) compiling quality unread copies of Books #5 -17 of Peter’s New Frontier Star Trek series (I had already bought Books #1-4)… Then handing them over to my girlfriend (who is a big fan of Peter’s Imzadi but has told me over and over again that she does NOT

32. (finishing my run on sentence)
    … like to read Science Fiction novels– and especially would NOT like to read a series of Science Fiction novels… (Preferring to watch science fiction instead)… I can state that she is now on New Frontier Book 4 and loving every single freakin’ chapter!

    I believe there are far more people like my girlfriend in the Peter’s ‘PLUS’ column. Which, I can say from experience… Makes it a lot easier to deal with the “haters” and nabobs who think they are being clever when they are simply being childish and boring.

33. I know I didn’t type the first part of my post and hit enter (4) Times! Glenn, a little help here please?!

    1. I gotcha cover on this one.

       Kath

34. I look forward to treating you as the living god that you are at DragonCon.

35. Makes me think of a joke I heard.

    Guy walks into a psychiatrists office for the first time and asks the doctor “Why the hëll don’t people like me, you fat f–k??!?”

    1. Doctor joke…

       My new doctor is Dr. Kuke. He’s Chinese, and it’s pronounced Cookie. He only takes patients who feel crumby.

       1. I’ll address the main post some other time, but if we’re into doctor names…
          .
          My urologist works in a practice with several others, as seems to be the norm these days. Two of the others are named, I kid you not, Dr. Seaman and Dr. Yanke. Pronounced pretty much like you’d expect, too.
          .
          D’ya think their parents somehow just knew?

       2. That reminds me of a shopping center in New Jersey I went to once, which contained three stores called, respectively, B.J.’s, Ðìçk’s, and Seaman’s.
          .
          As for doctor names, my childhood dentist was named Dr. Panik. And my pediatrician was Dr. Black. His first name? Jet. And he had a daughter named Ebony. And they were white.

       3. And my pediatrician was Dr. Black.
          .
          You can easily find people with the last names Black, Green, White, Brown, and even Blue. But how often do meet an Orange, Yellow, or Red? 🙂

       4. Speaking of doctor names… Imagine as a child going to a Dr. Needles. Granted, he was a good doctor, but never could quite get past the name when I was seven.

       5. @Tim Lynch
          Generally, parents don’t give children their last names- only their first names.
          =p 😉

       6. Sez you — my wife and I had to pick which last name our daughter would get. 🙂

36. Thanks, Kathleen. 🙂

37. While rudeness is certainly a problem throughout our entire society today, this incident also underscores the problem of fandom being overly passionate and demanding. There are lots of things going wrong with comics these days but, when it all comes down to it, they’re just comics. I won’t lose my home because Marvel raised their prices. The world isn’t ending just because DC has zombies everywhere. Yes, there will be bad artists and bad writers who will muck things up but that’s because, for everyone who hates Joe Idiot, there’s someone else who likes him.

    I’ve never met Rob Liefeld but from what I’ve heard he’s one of the nicest people in the industry. His art is not my taste *ahem* but I can see why people enjoy it. It’s wildly over the top–just as comic book superheroes, by their nature, are wildly over the top! I guess I’m kind of a closet Liefeld fan if only because people give him such a hard time since it’s cool to rag on him. Although I’ve probably just screwed my chances of this ever happening, if I ever got the opportunity to work with him, I wouldn’t hesitate to jump into the fan flames with him.

38. I remember going to a con in KC…I asked a a very nice gentleman for a drawing of Professor X..The gentleman did it with a smile on his face and we both got a good laugh. Thanks, Mr. David for your drawing of Prof X! I was one of my most cherished moments of fandom. Yes there is rudeness on both sides, pro and fan, but it has to be overlooked and the fun of funny books can shine on. Remember that Rob Liefeld created Supreme that Alan Moore and Rick Vietch took over and became the best “Superman” books ever done! Well thats my two cents, thanks!

39. Completely off topic, PAD, but I’m willing to bet you’d really, really enjoy this:

    http://www.madweasel.com/kattsaerie/MutantProblem/NYT_mutantproblem_index.html

    On topic, I’ve “stalked” you at several Shore Leaves now, and you’ve always been great to see. Even when I hit you with my bizarre autograph requests.

    J.

40. The timing of this is interesting because I live in Victoria BC and Rob Liefeld will actually be at a convention here in October. As with others he’s not a fav artist of mine (quite the opposite in fact), but I’ve heard good things about his interactions with fans so I plan to say hi and talk to him in such a way that, even if he doesn’t remember me after, we have a pleasant enough interaction.

    But memorial service? That’s ruder still.

41. Y’know, PAD, I read this post this morning, and I’m reading it again and the Memorial Service story still just kills me. No specifics of why she didn’t like your writing or what stories she didn’t particularly care for, just that it was awful in general. Like she just had to get it off her chest, like it was weighing on her that much, never mind the fact that attendants there might be, I don’t know, a little somber because of why they were there in the first place. Unbelievable.

    But the point has been raised that some comic fans can be found lacking in certain social graces. In their minds a slight toward another fan or even a creator could never even be conceived of toward someone in, say, the “real world.” (This can go both ways, mind you). I suppose in some aspects this form of fandom can be seen as a niche society, and part of whatever pent-up tension and aggression a fan feels can only be displayed in the confines of that society (or the safe and touch-free security of the internet).

42. A friend of mine works in an industry where similar sorts of unasked for critics may accost you at inappropriate times. I suggested the next time that happens just politely say, “I’m sorry. You’ve just broken the ‘no áršëhølëš’ rule and have to stop talking now.”

    He did, and apparently the would-be critic wandered away absolutely flabbergasted.

43. How about gøddámņ treating them the way one should properly treat guests.
    .
    You somewhat answered your own question. Hospitality and knowing how to treat guests is becoming a lost art. It is striking to me how rudely I am treated at restaurants or fast food places. They don’t seem to connect that if you are treated poorly, you will spend your money elsewhere.
    .
    How much more is that the case in your setting. Because someone paid for the work of an artist or writer, they seem to think it gives them the right to demean and belittle. It is now their “right” to do so, but don’t you dare dish it back (as you mentioned).
    .
    Honest feedback can be helpful (though not always), but personal attacks and mocking someone accomplishes nothing.
    .
    Getting back to my first thought (it is late and the mind digresses), I admit I have made many mistakes in this area. Some have been uncalled for, but some were simply out of ignorance. And you don’t always know you are ignorant! A little training in proper etiquette would go a long way to resolving some of these issues–not for the arrogant jerks who will be that way anyways, but for the rest of us who are not sure of all the rules when we meet a “celebrity guest” at an event. Sure, the golden rule fits to a certain extent, but more specific tips sure do help.
    .
    (Note: This is just a comment on the state of our society, not a request of tips from PAD of how to treat him if I were ever to meet him at an event or convention.)
    .
    Iowa Jim

44. He’s got an apology (of sorts) up now. It’s more of an expression of his own, inescapable and internal tragedy that really means that we should all weep for him in the night. Blech,I tell you. I’ve never approached someone whose work I didn’t agree with. Perhaps because I was busy being positive and enjoying spending my time talking to creators I did admire.
    .
    What’s sad is none of us will be able to enjoy the level of satisfaction this kid had from being a bully, which is all he really is. I remember going up to PAD a few months ago and telling him that his comic work was a factor in my becoming a sci-fi writer myself. I walked away feeling like a million bucks. This guy walked away feeling like he was made of gold pressed latinum.
    .
    I’d like to think most people upon first meeting will assume the best of others. I’ve met plenty of people knowing beforehand I don’t agree with their work, their politics, their choice in pizza toppings. If you give people a second, you’ll probably find that they’re good company. And you know what? That probably goes for this kid as well. If you bumped into him on the street, he’d just be a guy who cares about comics a bit too much and needs a little bit more growing up. Those aren’t dámņìņg personality traits – they’re just annoying.

45. Why are people so rude these days? What ever happened to manners? I am constantly wondering about this. Does anyone remember when people stopped having manners?

    This guy seems to have no comprehension that what he did was uncalled for or that the people around him weren’t as thrilled as he thinks they were. I think we’ve all met a guy like this. You nod at his unfunny joke and then a minute later you hear him telling someone how you were laughing so hard at his joke. They just don’t seem to understand the way the world really is reacting to them. No wonder guests at conventions some times seem cold they just had to deal with a guy like this at some point in the day. By the way thank you Peter David, though I haven’t met you in person you come across as a very friendly professional, and everyone on here that has met you seems to have nothing but good to say about you. So forget about rude ladies at memorial services because I’m pretty sure everyone here loves your writing.

    Ok I’m done blowing smoke, but does anyone have any idea of what happened to manners?

    1. It’s too easy to be rude. Manners require thought, attention, care for others, and respect for one’s self and those one meets. Nobody has the time, the self-respect, or the attention span anymore.

       As noted above, Mr. Heinlein noted that loss of manners was a symptom of a sick society. America in the 21st century is one of the sickest – and that’s not a comparison to anyone else these days; that’s a comparison to how America once was. That’s also not a pining for the good ol’ days – a lot about our history has been unpleasant, unsavory, and just plain not as good as we have it now.

       And – sadly – rudeness used to get a reply of a shove, or a punch in the face. These days, if someone reacts to a really rude comment or gesture in any way, they get labeled a bully, or get the cops (and lawyers) called on them. And then, the insulters actually have the GALL to look offended! “How dare you reply to me about my calling you a no-talent hack? It just shows how mean you are!”

       God, I’d love to hear some professional say, “Your opinion is yours, and that should be as far as it goes. You matter to me so little that I can barely hear you. Are you still here? I can’t tell…”

       I remain,
       Sincerely,
       Eric L. Sofer
       The Silver Age Fogey
       x<]:o){

       1. And – sadly – rudeness used to get a reply of a shove, or a punch in the face. These days, if someone reacts to a really rude comment or gesture in any way, they get labeled a bully, or get the cops (and lawyers) called on them.
          .
          Not only that: Let’s say that precisely that happened. Someone was rude to me and I shoved them or punched them. Or, even more possible, knowing me: Someone was rude to my wife or my child and I punched them. First thing that happens is that you just know someone is videotaping it and it goes up on youtube. And second, the guy that I punched sues me.
          .
          PAD

       2. Y’know what? We should go back to the days when you could whack someone across the face with a glove if they showed you disrespect.

          “I mean, even when slapping was fashionable, ya know, they did it in Paris, some guy would come up: WHAP PAP ‘I challenge you to a duel.’ They would have a gunfight after that— somebody had to go!”

          -Charlie Murphy

       3. And RAH should know more than most his Guest of Honor talk goot booed at the 1977 Worldcon

46. I was at Wizard World, and I thought it was cool that Rob was at the Image table as an unannounced guest. I ended up chatting with Dirk Manning for a bit (accidentally, long story, but really nice guy) and found out Jim Valentino was there, too. Image launched during my comic collecting peak, so of course I’ve got some of their books at home, but I’m not a fan. I don’t dislike them, and I thought about going to chat (but didn’t, I find I’m a little starstruck at cons). Like them or dislike them, no one can deny that Rob and Image have had an impact on the way comics are made and looked at, both within the industry and without. Maybe someday at a future con I’ll get the opportunity to talk to them about what it was like when they split from Marvel.

    Until then, I’ll just be amazed at the effort some people will go to tell someone they didn’t enjoy their effort at entertainment. There’s a mention upthread about Schumacher’s efforts in the Batman franchise: I’ve joked about asking him for my money back, too. Then I learned that he was hired to take the franchise in that neon direction by the studio. He did the job he was paid for. I see Heroes Reborn the same way. If you want to blame someone, blame the EiC of Marvel at the time for hiring the Image crew. Rob didn’t force anyone to give him Cap, he was hired to do his thing with the book. And again, like him or not, his brand of comic has been keeping him in business for the better part of 2 decades now.

    Civility is quickly becoming an endangered species. There’s a whole generation of Americans who think it’s their prerogative to be able to express themselves however and whenever they want.

47. What happened to civility? What engendered the “you first … after me” society? Lots of things I’d say. Not that the following examples are not meant as blanket condemnations, but every little bit helps – or hurts in this instance.

    – Parents’ involvement in raising their kids. When I was in school, parent/teacher nights were packed. Nowadays? Teacher I dated several years back bemoaned the low turnouts on such evenings nowadays. If parents can’t be bothered to spend the time and energy to see to their kids’ upbringing, who will?

    – Extremists [emphasis on that word ‘extremists’] in the feminist movement who’ll bite peoples’ heads off for having the temerity to hold the door open, or pay for diner or … so forth. Yes, it happens. It’s happened to me. Hasn’t changed my way of doing things, and yes, I know it’s a tiny minority, but I can also see some impressionable young lad deciding “OK, if that’s the way you want it…”.

    – Cell phones. For all the responsible owners of the bloody things, there are a lot of irresponsible, annoying ones. It helped bring out the “I do it because I can” sentiment and to hëll with those around them inconvenienced by their actions.

    – Pop culture helps spread this malaise with such annoying phrases as “no problem” instead of “you’re welcome”.

    – Economic ‘downturn’ after economic ‘downturn’ where we start to have bred into us a ‘dog-eat-dog’ mentality of ‘only the strong will survive’ and kindness and civility are seen as a weakness. As an anonymous saying has it, “feelings of superiority and inferiority are both the same. They come from fear.”

    – Our high-tech world. Time was, I’m corresponding with friends overseas, there was a minimum of two weeks turnaround for letters (remember letters, those odd things on paper, came in envelopes with stamps on and everything?) to get to destination and the reply to reach its recipient. Assuming an immediate response, of course. Now, with computers/cell phones/Crackberries and the like, anything other than an immediate response is often taken as a slight. We should all be at everybody’s constant beck and call.

    I say again, I know this is an unfair, overly broad statement and it doesn’t apply to everyone, often not even a majority. But I do believe they are factors, and that taken together, in various combinations, and throwing in others which I’m sure I have missed, well, we’re talking the makings of a sick society indeed.

48. Some people have no imagination, if you want to really take the piss then start up your own novels or media and when its successful, lightly joke about the person in question.

    I’m sure if Family Guy did a spot about Rob Liefield (and they do go off the main stream sometimes), the point would be made and everyone would like it because it would probably be funny.

    Hëll, humour was probably invented so people could insult each other in a light way without starting a war.

    I wouldn’t criticize anyone in the creative industries without having something creative behind me that they could poke if they wanted too (but if they did…).

    I do think that the internet is leading to people having less manners. People say things on the internet that they would never say to anyones face, but after being rude on the internet enough, its not too much of a leap to bring in into the solid part of the matrix we’re enjoying.

    Still, its like the saying goes,
    “The great go too soon, and some people just never leave”.

    1. I just checked out YellowHatGuy’s blog, he getting slaughtered! He’s lucky he’s in the states, in japan they’d have his address online now.

       I doubt anyone wearing a yellow hat will be welcome at a comic convention for a bit.

       If I were him I’d apologise and get out of the way on this.

       1. “in japan they’d have his address online now”?

          Where do you get this idea?

       2. Or that he’s lucky to be in the States? There’s plenty of stories about people being tracked down here, too.

       3. Hi Rob,
          I meant to say China, they are fairly famous for internet vigilantism, and I have some examples in case someone takes me up on that one.
          Conor.

    2. Tery Pratchett once responded to a dork on a newsgroup who complained that the latest Discworld novel was too long and badly written, too.
       .
       He wondered why Pterry didn’t wite a better book that he woud have enjoyed, instead of this tripe.
       .
       Pterry replied: “I guess it’s just down to you being a better writer than me. Where were you when the paper was blank?”

49. I’m reminded of a brief meeting I had with the late Archie Goodwin once at a con in Northern California. We spent a moment or two discussing current events in the Batman books at DC, and then I mentioned that I hoped to write comics professionally myself at some point in the future.

    Most of the time, when I tell pros something like that, I get either a polite nod or a mini-lecture on how hard it is to break in and so forth. Not this time. Instead, Mr. Goodwin simply nodded and said, “I’ll look forward to working with you.”

    Ever since, that has stayed with me as being the quintessential display of CLASS. He had no idea whether or not I was any good, or would ever make it; instead, he responded in the most encouraging way I think anyone ever could…that he’d look forward to working with me someday. I truly regret that this is no longer possible, because I think I’d have enjoyed working with him as well. I’ve heard that Mr. Goodwin was loved by everyone he came in contact with during his life; if my experience was at all typical, I can easily see why.

    I know this doesn’t really have anything to do with people being rude to each other, but since so many posters are sharing fan-to-pro experiences, I thought I’d bring this one up. For whatever it’s worth.

    1. I’ve never heard a bad word said about Archie Goodwin. He sounds like a real class act.
       .
       Most of the interactions I’ve seen with professionals in the industry have been very cordial. Even some of the ones who have a re for impatience or at least not suffering fools willingly have shown unusual restraint, in my experience. I’ve seen Harlan Ellison being very kind to the worst sort of social misfits at a comic convention, while people gathered around and elbow each other waiting for him to rip the poor kid a new one; the left disappointed. (Ellison, in fact, has always been one of the friendliest, nicest, famous people I’ve ever interacted with at cons. I know that isn’t his street rep but there you are.). I’ve seen John Byrne merely give a gentle sigh when some guy plopped a huge stack of comics in front of him to sign (and sign them he did). I’ve seen Richard Pini very patiently continue to speak to a fan who, lets just say, was practically the personification of Comic Book Guy, without the good hygiene. Only one pro ever disappointed me with his attitude and hey, it might have been a bad day so I feel no need to give out his name (it wasn’t even that he was rude, just did not seem to want to be there, which was made all the worse by how friendly people like Dee Wallace Stone and Adrienne Barbeau were.)
       .
       I don’t doubt that some pros can act like dirtbags to fans, since we have certainly seen example of douchey behavior between pros. I suspect though that a lot more obnoxiousness goes on from fan to pro than the other way around.

       1. Ellison, in fact, has always been one of the friendliest, nicest, famous people I’ve ever interacted with at cons. I know that isn’t his street rep but there you are.
          .
          I saw him in Agent-of-Chaos mode at a LosCon several years backm during the B5 era — the three people on stage were Harlan, JMS, and Jeff Conaway, the last of whom was doing his first con ever. The poor guy might as well have had the other two tear off his head and play handball with it; it might have been kinder.
          .
          Despite that, though, it didn’t feel *malicious* per se, just … outspoken. I don’t have this sense of Harlan-as-evil that others seem to have had over the years; among other things, anyone who can keep PAD and Bob Crais as friends must be doing something right.

       2. oh, yeah. Harlan’s definitely not evil = he just sort of restructures reality his way whenever it suits him. And sometimes it sounds as if he’s got no brakes.
          .
          But, much as he’s annoyed me sometimes in the past, i’d actually like to get to know him a lot better than i ever did – it’s been so long since our past small interactios i doubt he even remembers me – if only so i could tell him how much i appreciate what he did for Manly Wellman’s widow that time at ConFederation.

50. I’m still trying to get my head around the fact that the guy who pulled this ‘prank’ is supposedly 28 years old, and did it because “I wanted to hurt Liefeld as much as he hurt me with what he did to Captain America”.

    I mean, Jesus, this would have been fairly sad and lame and dickwaddish at 18, but 28?!?!

    That’s just a whole new definition of pathetic.

    Cheers.

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