On the murder of abortion-provider Doctor Tiller:
“I don’t really like to think of it as a murder. It was terminating Tiller in the 203rd trimester.”
She’ll be here all week, ladies and gentleman. Be sure to fight for the life of the veal and shoot your waitress.
PAD
(Oh, and don’t let anyone tell you that too much is being made of Coulter making a bad off-the-cuff joke. Tiller was 68. She ran the numbers; 203 is exactly correct. She actually took the time to research her “joke.”)
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Whats worse is how many times I’ve heard conservatives say she says nothing worse than what Al Franken or Rachael Maddow say on the left.
Yeah, I can recall when Franken said we need to ‘bomb those towel-heads’, or Maddow said we should be killing abortion doctors.
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Oh, wait, I didn’t hear those things? And you know why? Because they DON’T say things like that. Which of course goes along way to explain why the ‘far left’ doesn’t have anybody to match up with the likes of Coulter and Limbaugh.
No… Al Franken just joked about helping Al Qaeda kill President Bush, but you’re right, they never makes those type of jokes.
The fact that she still garners an audience of considerable size in this country depresses me to no end. I won’t even discuss politics with anyone who says they like her because there’s no point. They’re so far removed from reality that you’d have a better shot at a meaningful conversation about quantum physics with a Lhasa Apso.
Coulter gets an audience for the same reason people like Limbaugh, Hannity and Savage get an audience – their target demographic is the uneducated white male looking for anyone other than himself to blame all of his life’s failures on. It’s easier to say it’s the fault of the evil liberals, or the black man, or the Arabs, or whatever, than looking in the mirror and saying “I screwed my life up.” In the entertainment industry, it’s called “appealing to the lowest common denominator.”
I don’t think Coulter & the rest believe half of what they’re saying, though. They say these outrageous things because they know there’s a lucrative market for hate. Especially Ann, who surfaces every 5 or so months to try and out-crazy what everyone else is saying.
And before anyone jumps on me for being an eeeeevil liberal – yes, I know people on our side do bad things as well. I despise Michael Moore as much as I do Rush Limbaugh when it comes to playing loose with facts or outright making things up… but I never see our commentators acting like their counter-parts on the right when it comes to sheer vitriol, hatred, and incitement to commit violence upon those who disagree with you.
What? A trimester is 3 months (since there are 3 trimesters in a 9-month gestation). Thus, there are 4 trimesters in a year. 68 years * 4 trimesters/year = 272 trimesters, so Coulter was off by about 70.
RonP
Actually, I caught the same mistake you did when I tried to check her math. So instead of mockling her for being so callous to do the math, we should be on her for doing the math wrong.
But come to think of it, since when is getting the facts right a bad thing in comedy? Stan Freberg, in his “United States of America” album, has a bit with Samuel Morse sending the first telegraph message. He hired an actual morse code operator to tap out “What hath God Wrought” over the end of the sketch. The guy even said to him, “You realize that about 20 people are gonna know this is the right code, right?” Stan didn’t mind.
ANYTHING can be funny. I get that this could be funny (If it had been said on SNL in a parody of Coulter it’d be funny) But I agree that I’m not 100% sure she WAS telling a joke.
Not only that, but since counting trimesters normally starts at conception, she didn’t account for the 3 trimesters before birth. I don’t think she took time to research this joke at all.
Roeder did not do the Pro-Life movement any favors by killing Tiller and his actions have been condemned by the Pro-Life community.
Coulter was being outrageous and over-the-top. It’s how she gets heard.
Ðámņ, you’re right. I just did 68 times 3, which is what she must have done.
PAD
And I did 203 / 3 to get 67.666…
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So it’s an easy mistake to make from either direction if you’re not taking more than a few seconds to quickly come up with a number. But despite her getting a wrong number PAD’s point stands: she thought about it enough to make an attempt at the math so it’s no off-the-cuff attempt at a “witty” comment.
I’m conservative and she’s scum. No if, and, or buts. I do think there are some folks on the left just as hateful and offensive, but that doesn’t excuse a thing she says.
Unfortunetly, there are no shortage of nuts out there.
Without a doubt, you are correct that there is slime on the left with the same lack of humanity, but I can’t think of any that actually get a national audience the way she does. More distressing than her existence to me is the fact that there’s a decent sized chunk of the population that listens to her.
So the Letterman excuse won’t work since she researched it?
Letterman took joy in the death of another human being?
I must have missed that.
I thought she told a distasteful joke, I was unaware she was dancing around joyfully celabrating the death.
If being pro-life means joking about shooting a man providing a needed service to women facing unthinkable situations, then I’ll just be pro-death, thanks. We’re more consistent over here.
Yeah, like taking responsibility and actually raising the child they happen to have conceived. How very unthinkable.
Here is a sampling of some cases of third-trimester abortions procured at Dr. Tiller’s clinic. Sullivan went on to run a lot more stories of similar situations, but the link above is a good start.
Where raising the child in question is at all possible, late-term abortions do not happen. They are entirely illegal and not in demand. This is not a matter of “taking responsibility.”
That’s the binary mindset a lot of people have. Unfortunately, there are a lot of reasons people get, and in some cases need abortions. I always fall back on the three old standards of rape, incest and credible medical threat to the mother as situations where an abortion might be a viable option for the individual.
It’s FAR from the only answer. I’m adopted, as were both of my sisters. But since I do consider there are legitimate reasons that an abortion might be performed, I feel they have to remain legal.
And to follow up on Alyson’s point, Third-trimester abortions are HEAVILY controlled. You need to have a VERY legitimate medical reason, and it’s checked and double checked. The pro-life side shows pictures of such procedures and wants the public to think they are the norm. Thay are FAR from it. If there’s even ten of the oft-discussed “partial-birth abortions” performed in a year, I’d be shocked. Indeed, it’s these late-term abortions that are even better examples of the “Medical threat” scenario than the earlier-term abortions. They’re only performed in rare and extreme cases, which is not what the pro-life side wants people to think. They are far more dangerous than early-term ones.
Any abortion is an invasive medical procedure. It’s something that needs to be seriously considered before it’s done. And the BEST thing to do would be to think about it BEFORE you need to make the choice, and amend your behaviors and practices as much as can be to avoid needing to make said decision.
I’m well aware that’s not going to happen, and not so pie-in-the sky as to suggest that everyone can or want to do it. But it’s a goal worth consdering.
Yeah, like taking responsibility and actually raising the child they happen to have conceived. How very unthinkable.
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If only all the pro-lifers were doing just that for the children of mothers who have children they don’t want. But most don’t, do they?
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Most pro-lifers don’t want abortion, but then they don’t want the responsibility that goes with raising said ‘child’ either. The ‘child’ only matters until it’s born, then its on its own, and if that child ends up welfare, well, it’s just something else for the pro-lifer to rail against.
I find myself thinking about the Nathan Lane line from “Birdcage” where, in drag and looking remarkably like Barbara Bush, he says, “Why shoot the doctors? They’re just doing their job. Shoot the mothers, that’s what I say. Oh, I know, I know, that will kill the fetus, too. But it’s going to die anyway, so why not just have it go down with the ship?”
PAD
I was going to respond with something along these lines, but this is exactly what I was going to say, so I’ll just go with: Ditto.
I did a Google search for “Ann Coulter Tiller” and this is the first thing I found, from politicsdaily.com:
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Media personality Ann Coulter appeared on Bill O’Reilly’s television program this week to discuss the murder of late-term abortion provider Dr. George Tiller. Never one to shy away from controversy, Coulter offered the following ethical assessment of the crime:
“I don’t really like to think of it as a murder. It was terminating Tiller in the 203rd trimester.”
When pressed by O’Reilly on this statement, Coulter replied,
“I am personally opposed to shooting abortionists, but I don’t want to impose my moral values on others.”
Setting aside Coulter’s tongue-in-cheek, rhetorical gamesmanship, the likening of Tiller’s murder to a late-term abortion is an interesting tact. Her point seems to be: What really distinguishes the killing of a fetus from an out-of-the-womb homicide? Shouldn’t we view them as one and the same?
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I ask everyone to think about it the way Ann Coulter thinks about it. If she believes that abortion is murder, wouldn’t she be jaded by the millions of murders that take place every year that no one seems to care about? In my mind, it at least provides food for thought.
Ann Coulter is also a big death penalty proponent, so I’ll throw it back it you; why do people who support the death penalty argue so vehemently against abortion if they think life is “sacred”?
And when the answer comes back that there are differences between a convicted criminal and a fetus, then you’ve answered your own question. There are differences between a fetus and a living breathing person. Yes, I am saying there is a difference between a fetus and a “person” because that’s what I believe. Feel free to disagree. It’s a free country, but don’t tell Ann that.
If nothing else, if there is absolutely no other reason to deplore what happened to Tiller (and there is), then try “rule of law.” It’s against the law to kill other human beings, and it is not against the law to provide abortions.
It’s sadly ironic that scum like Coulter spout law and order until it’s in the way of their agenda.
The difference between a fetus and a criminal is (so they maintain) the difference between an innocent life and a guilty one. It’s not acceptable to randomly select a victim and kill them, it is in some scenarios (and states) acceptable to kill a person who has been convicted of certin heinous crimes. but as you say, the doctor was not convicted of any crimes, and was innocent in the eyes of the law (if not in those of the pro-life crowd).
There’s far too much nodding and winking coming from the pro-abortion side over this murder. The only response that should have been heard is “This guy was disturned, our goal is to preserve life, please do not think he represents our goals or that we applaud his actions”, but there’s been far too much “Well, at least some good came out of it, snicker tee hee”.
There’s simply no way this act was “right”. A religious fanatic killed a person who stood in defiance of their beliefs. We’re fighting a war against that very thing right now. And shame on the folks who don’t see the similarity.
I ask everyone to think about it the way Ann Coulter thinks about it.
You mean “How can I exploit this to boost book sales and speaking fees?”
“I am personally opposed to shooting abortionists, but I don’t want to impose my moral values on others.”
That is probably the funniest AND scariest thing she has ever said.
Let’s forget for a second that that’s all she ever comes accross as wanting to do, the implication in that quote is that who is she to tell the man that killing a doctor is wrong. Of course, abandon the thought if someone had a moral value that said that abortion is ok…
What logical path is followed when you are in favor of the death penalty, but not abortion?
I frequently hear that the convicted criminal has made his choice (or her choice) and is being killed because of their actions.
The fetus on the other hand, is being killed for something they didn’t do.
Look, I don’t agree with the pro-life movement. I have just heard about every possible argument from their side.
Of course the anti-abortion side can cite how they find there to be differences between a convicted criminal and a fetus; that’s my point. They think refuse to see that the pro-choice side can also cite differences between a fetus and a walkin’-around-human being. In their minds, anybody who gets an abortion considers the fetus to be a full blown baby that they’ve decided to kill because it inconveniences them. That’s a straw man argument that needs to be taken off the table if there’s ever going to be a rational discussion on the matter between sides.
Paraphrasing Tina Turner, “What’s logic got to do, got to do with it”.
It’s a matter of belief. People choose to believe one thing and then find and interpret facts to back up the rightness of their belief.
Some people do believe some pretty unbelievable things though, and then act unbelievably!
Cheers.
This is where I give kudos to the Catholic Church, as they are against both abortion and the death penalty on the grounds that they view life as sacred.
I’m glad to see that the best way to regard a sensitive ethical issue is still to mock it. I mean, heaven forbid we have a reasonable dialogue and work on an issue that has problems on both sides in order to guarantee the best possible outcome.
Honestly, I’m pro choice, but I am saddened every time a woman has to make this horrible and painful choice and in a perfect world, she wouldn’t have to. In a perfect world, there would be no rape, no birth defects, no poverty, no hunger, no discrimination against women, no accidental pregnancy and everyone would be wanted. In a perfect world, women would have support during and after pregnancy, emotional, spiritual, financial and pharmacological if needed.
There is a discussion that needs to happen. There’s work that needs to be done.
But hey, Coulter wants to make cheap jokes. It’s a lot easier to do that than actually work on the issues. It’s a lot easier to tear down than to build. She’s a coward who wants to judge and preach rather than help and teach.
I agree completely, unfortunately the instances you list are not the only reasons some do go through with abortion. For some it is just another form of birth control.
As a family that has suffered a miscarriage with our second child and then subsequent inability to conceive I can understand my wifes pro-life stance. She also understands my pro-choice stance. (However, my mother-in-law does not). We have since enjoyed the adoption of a wonderful little boy, though he’s almost seven years old so not so little anymore. He made the pain and frustration we were feeling disappear the second we saw him.
We both deplore the shooting of Dr. Tillman and I find Ann Coulter statements ridiculous. I bet you any money she has a new book coming out. What a horrible way to promote yourself
For some it is just another form of birth control.
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Well, because of the fight in many places against ANY and ALL abortion, AS WELL AS BIRTH CONTROL ITSELF, it is the *only* form of birth control.
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Maybe if pharmacists weren’t fighting against handing out the morning after pill, or we were dumb enough to believe that abstinence is the only sex ed we should teach our kids, then maybe, just maybe, we’d have less unwanted pregnancies and less abortions in this country.
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So, here’s a thought: we make use of the options available to us to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place. “Legal, safe, rare”. It was a good motto 15-20 years ago, and it still is today… if only we’d make a bloody effort to work toward it.
South Park did it first.
What goes around … comes around. Just imagine the jokes that will be made when Coulter kicks the bucket (either by natural or permeditated causes).
Tempting as the idea is, I think the best thing to do when she dies is simply let her go. There is a lot of life worth celebrating. She is not on my personal list of celebratory events. Her dying won’t change that.
Your maturity and sensitivity aside, the reality still remains: it’s a sure bet that due to the infamy she has garnered over her ‘career’ of being a controversal public figure, upon her eventually passing, the event will be easy fodder for whatever passes for comedy (or comedians) at the moment.
You know, a little while back she was on some show admitting that she just says this stuff because she thinks it’s funny.
Never did figure out why that particular soundbite didn’t get more play.
Yep, saw that quote. Yeesh.
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I think it’s a desperate attempt to get more attention; she’s been out of the news lately, and this was a way back in. (Doesn’t make it any less vile, though.)
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And I’m so very sad that she and I share an alma mater.
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TWL
She definitely did some research, just lousy research.
She had to do enough research to know that Tiller died 3 months shy of 68. (68*3 = 204. I was trying to figure out how she got 1-off even with her inaccurate math, and then looked up Tiller’s bio on Wikipedia, and realized he died 3 months shy of his birthday.)
He was 203 trimesters old, if you believe life begins at birth, and therefore a trimester is not based on a pregnancy, but based on a calendar year. In that case, she was right on target, but I don’t think that is her belief.
As pointed out above, a trimester is 3 months, hence 4 trimesters per year. 4 x 68 = 252.
It’s 272. Also as mentioned above.
Add another person to the list who would give oh so much to be able to edit their posts.
Had I typed 262 instead of 252, I might have been able to claim it was a typo, but alas. I did the math in my brain, which has proven lately to be my enemy. Darn brain!
There’s one aspect of George Tiller’s life that I never see mentioned. He helped some of his patients put their babies up for adoption.
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I do not know the whys and hows. Perhaps there were women who were uncertain about going through with the procedure. Perhaps he did not feel comfortable performing abortions on perfectly healthy kids at a certain point. I don’t know.
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Now, someone could say that helping a few women with adoption does not make up for hundreds or thousands of late term abortions. I have no interest in getting into an argument about that. I just would point out one thing–he could have publicized this. He could have used this fact to make himself look better and to counter those who portrayed him as only interested in making money, or, worse, as some kind of kervorkian type who might get some perverse thrill out of what he did. As far as I know he never once mentioned this. I only know about it because my ex-wife was a friend of his.
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It says something about a man that he would keep secret actions that would elevate him in the public’s eye, motivated, I guess, by nothing more than a desire to keep his patient’s private concerns private.
The whole thing is a lot more complicated than the chattering heads on TV make it look. Some of the babies that Tiller aborted were already dead, the mother’s doctors had told them they’d just have to carry the dead babies for a couple of months until they were still born. Some of the women had terminal diseases, making everything about the delivery and what came after much more difficult.
Thanks for pointing out the adoptions, Bill. It’s a good point.
Those who wanted to demonise him, wouldn’t have let something like “facts” get in the way.
They never have before.
Ann Coulter always get attention and therefore it drives her to continue. It’s like watching a potential train wreck with every interview and people love that kind of sensationalism. There is a really funny episode (most of them are in my opinion) of the Boondocks (the S word) where Ann Coulter is portrayed in a hilarious satirical version of herself. Check it out, probably can find the episode on youtube.
Comments like Ann’s are unwarranted and not reflective of most of my conservative friends. In fact, the only time I ever read something by her is in a post such as this one. I have no time for that type of rhetoric.
While I do consider abortion murder, so was the killing of the doctor. Neither is right and neither is something worth joking about.
Iowa Jim
Not only is it a tasteless joke, she stole it from Dennis Miller. Miller used it in a rant on the old HBO show. She’s unoriginal AND ignorant.
Thank you.
For some reason I got confused and thought it was George Carlin.
But now that you bring up Miller, I remember the bit.
Matt Dow
Not sure where else to post. . .Farrah Fawcett and Michael Jackson both died today.
~Chris
Gobsmacked.
If memory serves, this is a rather old joke. I think its an old Bill Hicks joke.
I’m not pro-choice, I’m pro-abortion.
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There’s wayyyyy too many people on this earth. More abortions = fewer people.
As despicable as Coulter is, and as much as I’m pro-choice (at least for the first trimester), how is what Tiller is anything other than murdering infants? Are there really any medical situations in which the baby is a danger to the mother’s life, and terminating it not only removes that danger, but is morally justifiable?
“Are there really any medical situations in which the baby is a danger to the mother’s life, and terminating it not only removes that danger, but is morally justifiable?”
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Well, if ya don’t know, I can’t tell ya.
And, um, why does anybody still give a crap about what she has to say? I thought we’d all been on the Internet long enough to know that trolls are best dealt with by ignoring them.
Ann who?
As a life long member of what is known in some circles as the vast right wing conspiracy I feel obliged to provide a true conservative perspective on this. The problem that comes about from Coulter quips, quotes whatever you want to call them is that they are taken at face value, the only two perspectives even concieved of here is that it was her sensible endorsement of the act comment, or that it was a joke. Now whether or not you agree with the position that the unborn is a living being or not is irrelivant, it is nontheless the starting axium in which the comment is based and must be taken from that level. If such a concept is accepted it can then be reasoned that the abortions Dr. Tiller performed ended those lives in much the same manner as his own was. I submit to you that it was neither endorsement nor joke, but rather a jibe meant to to give no endorsement for or against the Dr.’s murder (how she really feels about that I would not speculate for I am not a telepath) but rather a jab against a societal tendancy to rationalize the ending of life in infants by using the euphamism of terminating a pregnancy during such and such trimester to obscure what taken at the level of the afformentioned axiom is nothing short of murder itself.